Bryant propane heater can't possibly be wired reversed (red LED blinks constantly)

Page 9 of 11  
Tony Hwang wrote, on Thu, 25 Dec 2014 15:40:38 -0700:

You are correct.
That control board P/N 1012-940-J HK42FZ009 has one tan inch-long rectangular resistor on standoffs in the middle of the board.
There are a few blue resistors with holes cut underneath them also.
Absolutely none look burnt.
Once I get the new flame sensor, I'll cross my fingers and hope that resolves the problem (although I can't realistically see how it will given how simple that sensor is mechanically).
If nothing changes, then I'll pull the board, and go over every trace.
Worst case, I'll buy a new control board.
One supplier told me the replacement was this board: https://www.arnoldservice.com/bryant-carrier-furnace-circuit-board-conversion-kit-325878-751/
QUESTION: Why do I need a $200 "conversion kit"? Can't I just replace the board, 1 to 1?
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Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 26 Dec 2014 07:50:48 -0500:

You are 100% on the money with that nut-driver suggestion!
My 1/4-inch nut driver has too short a reach, so, it keeps banging on the gas pipe every time I remove and replace the burners.
The small 1/4-inch screw keeps falling off the end of the nut d river, since you have a few inches before it touches metal.
I have scraped a magnet along the nut driver, which works somewhat, but certainly, if I did this for a living, I'd buy exactly what you suggest!
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On 12/26/2014 6:45 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I got a red in 1/4 and yellow in 5/16. They were about $15 each, and I loved em so much I bought a set for my other vehicle.
As a work around. Take a magnetic 1/4 nutsetter tip sold separately, in the screw driver section of the hardware. Slip the shaft into the end of your 1/4 nut driver. Wrap the intersect with three or four layers of electrical tape, pulled tightly as you wrap. This will get you by for the next dozen jobs.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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makolber wrote, on Fri, 26 Dec 2014 09:17:41 -0800:

Heh heh.
It wouldn't be the first time I accidentally crossed leads, but, in this case, I am doubly sure I hooked up all the leads correctly.
At the moment, I'm giving up until the new flame sensor arrives. If it works, I'll let you know.
I can't imagine anything going wrong with that thing though, since it's utterly simple. I can't think of a simpler sensor (save for maybe a peephole).
If the new sensor doesn't fix the problem, then I will move on to removing the circuit board, and then examining every trace and component.
If I have to, I'll buy a new board, Bryant P/N 1012-940-J HK42FZ009
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7517/15904853178_6d15b36c3e_b.jpg
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Danny D. wrote, on Fri, 26 Dec 2014 23:49:18 +0000:

In addition, considering the original problem, I will see if I can go back to the circuit breaker, to figure out if, somehow, the neutral and hot were flipped (but I can't imagine how that could happen).
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On 12/26/2014 6:53 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Just reminded me of some thing. I've worked on a couple furnace, that had a bit of corrosion on the multipin connectors. You'd only need a few minutes to (one at a time only) remove each of the multipin plastic connectors off the board. Light spray of WD-40 and replace. OK to remove and replace twice.
Some times, a light bit of corrosion interferes with how things work.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 04:23:32 -0800:

Which bimmer? E39 perhaps?
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On Saturday, December 27, 2014 8:58:09 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

X5, but I think they used the M54 6 cylinder engine in the 3 series too. BMW has a lot of pluses, but a lot more bad designs, quality issues, etc than you'd expect too.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 06:03:06 -0800:

I know the M54 well. All too well.
Don't have a clue about the wife's Japanese car. It never breaks. The bimmer? It's like Hanukkah - every day another light.
Everything but the engine breaks on the bimmer! The cooling system expansion tank explodes! The vanos valve adjustment seals are made out of the wrong rubber! The headlight adjustment pins are made out of the wrong plastic! The windshield cover molding is made out of the wrong rubber! The abs control module is placed too close to the exhaust manifold! The door vapor barriers are glued with the wrong adhesive! The cheap plastic disa valve plastic pin injests into the engine! The cheap sap valve freezes destroying the expensive sap pump! The liquid-filled thrust arm bushings leak! The window regulators fall off their tracks! The noisy mechanical belt tensioners squeal!
And that's just in the last six months!
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On Saturday, December 27, 2014 12:20:26 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

I'd say the latter is part of the engine for sure, some would include the expansion tank too.
Your comment about the wrong rubber, I've said that not about the vanos seals, but about a lot of other things. Their rubber and rubber like components are so bad, that I've said the CEO's brother in law or cousin must own the company supplying them. The CV joint boots fail right and left. A friend has been through Honda CRVs, puts 200K miles on them. He might have had one go here and there, but nothing like the BMW ones. That bellow like elbow that's part of the intake, another rubber part that fails too soon. The expansion tank, haven't had a problem here, but I see on BMW forums that it's a common failure too.
Don't get me started on the BMW forums. They hate me there, because I'm not so infatuated with BMW that I won't point out there many flaws. Those idiots are replacing stuff like the expansion tank as routine maintenance items. The V8s are waaaay worse. Valve stem seals failing all over the place at 60K to 100K miles. I mean, wtf? This is worse than Detroit in the 70s. But the BMW diehards just salute the BMW flag and keep buying them. The valve stem deal is a bitch, pull the heads, 32 of them to do, it's like $6K at the dealer. And then they have various other seals leaking, oil pan seals, God knows what else.

The DISA went here too. The whole DISA thing is another example of BMW over thinking. Allegedly by adding that abortion, they can tune the intake resonance for better mid-range performance. Maybe somebody, somewhere can notice the difference, but not me. I drove the X5 for a year with the thing not operating at all and never noticed a difference.

Yep. Cable breaks, down she goes! One went while just sitting in the driveway. Three have failed total. That's another one the BMW forum guys try to make excuses for.

How about the great crankcase ventilation system? You probably don't have a problem, being in CA. Almost all the other manufacturers use a simple, proven, reliable system. BMW decided to use an external oil separator. Combustion gasses are routed from the crankcase, to an oil separator, that then has a line sending the oil it recovers from the gasses back to the crankcase. The only problem is that the combustion gasses have steam in them too and when you send it out of the hot engine, in winter in these parts, it condenses inside the oil separator. The whole thing gets clogged with mayo like gunk and instead of the oil going back to the crankcase, the line is plugged, so it gets burned. Worse case, when the oil separator fails, it actually sucks oil directly from the oil pan into the intake and can hydrolock the engine. Actually oil lock, but same idea. Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZGUk6w_y6A

I've never seen that on any other car.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

Apparently they used buna-N nitrile rubber on the vanos seals. Actually, "seals" is a fancy word for "o rings". BMW won't sell you the nitrile or even better, viton, o rings. But Beisan will, for 60 bucks!
For the windshield cover molding, they all fall apart. Every single one. Luckily, it's just cosmetic (a bit of noise too) and not water tightness that's at stake, but, you'd think a big company like BMW can afford to do a modicum of outside testing of their materials.
For the headlight adjusters, they used something called pbt for the plastic, instead of nylon or delrin. So they *all* crumble. Not one survives a few years. It wouldn't be so bad except that a new headlight set is $1,000 because of the silly fiber optic cables in it that don't do anything useful except make the pretty celos halos work.
For the expensive disa valve, they used a cheap plastic retainer. There are titanium aftermarket repairs, which, if some aftermarket guy on a forum can figure out, you'd think BMW could figure it out also. It wouldn't be so bad except there is *nothing* stopping that pin from being ingested into the engine. Nothing good can come of that.
And don't even get me started on their abs control module placement, so close to the engine to save money on the wiring harness that it fails on *every* single newer E39 ever built! (the oldest E39s have the module under the glove compartment and they don't fail).
Likewise, not one E39 has ever survived without the cooling system blowing up, or the FSU burning out, or the trunk loom wiring chafing at the exact same spot in every single car (and don't even talk about the cupholders, every one of which breaks within a year of use).
Now, the car handles well, and the engine "internals" are very durable. Most engines die from the cooling system failing or the disa valve pin being ingested, not from wear and tear.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

Every single E39 has had at least one, but most by now have had two or three expansion tanks. I'm on my third.
One problem is that you absolutely cannot overfill the things. They are extremely complex and have many parts inside of them. They're more of a "system" than a "tank".
The aftermarket manufacturers 1.2 bar caps to replace the 2bar caps, but that only protects them in case of an overheating.
They break at the seams, or the nipple at the top just falls off and the level measurement rod falls off. Behr/Hella is the OEM but Behr is mostly made in China and South Africa nowadays, and the quality is even worse (if that can be imagined) than the originals.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

I know.
The common advice is to replace the *entire* cooling system the moment any one part goes.
The logic is that you'll be replacing it anyway, so, why wrench that stuff twice.
They usually replace all the BMW hoses, the Behr/Hella expansion tank, the Behr radiator (with a Nissens or Zionsville), the BMW plastic electric thermostat, a Steward waterpump, the viscous fan clutch, and, while they're at it the serpentine belt, two tensioners, and the idler pulley.
Ask me how I know.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

The V8 seems to either run hotter than the M54 or it reads hotter (nobody knows). But, it seems to go through valley pan seals on every single one.
Both models go through CCVs like toilet paper. The thing is horrendously complicated for a PCV valve!
You have to take apart most of the stuff on the engine just to get to it. The hoses always break and clog. Even the dipstick clogs! How BMW designed an oil dipstick with two concentric chambers, the outside of which clogs on almost every BMW is amazing!
Some engineer probably got an award for saving BMW money by making the dipstick guide tube an oil return hose, and for making money for BMW parts suppliers (the "re-designed" upgrade costs over $200!).
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On Saturday, December 27, 2014 7:36:49 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

My hat's off to you Danny. You really have the BMWs figured out. It was only recently that I came across the fact that the dip tube actually has two concentric tubes, the inner for the dip stick, the outer in the last foot or so for the return path of the oil from the crankcase oil separator. And that outer passage is very narrow, so it's very easy to clog. Which happens from the mayo like substance that forms from oil and water condensing after it's been routed out of the engine.
While we're on the crankcase ventilation system, here's something that I recently discovered. Almost all vehicles use a crankcase ventilation system that draws fresh air into the crankcase, while pulling combustion blowby gases through a PCV valve, to the intake to be burned. The BMW system does not pull any fresh air into the crankcase. It only pulls crankcase blowby gasses out. With the other system, you constantly have some fresh, lower humidity air coming into the crankcase, lowering the moisture there. With the BMW system, that doesn't happen. So, every time you turn the car off, there is more moisture there, which I believe helps lead to the formation of more of that mayo that clogs the crankcase ventilation system. I brought that up at one of the BMW "forums", but they promptly made every excuse, denied it was an issue, etc. I challenged them to find another manufacturer that uses such an unconventional system. The only one anyone could come up with was Audi, in at least one vehicle. And while they also use an external oil separator, it's not clear if they also don't pull any fresh air into the crankcase. The whole thing is a classic. They replaced a proven, simple, PCV type design that almost everyone else uses with a complicated abortion. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when you have no fresh air coming in, you're going to have higher moisture in the crankcase and when you take that together with oil to an external oil separator that isn't heated, it'd going to cool, condense and form sludge. It's like these guys just started building cars yesterday.

Yes, I know they have a new dipstick tube. And aFAIK, they didn't do a recall to make it right. You only get the new one if you pay for it or the oil separator fails under warranty. Also key to that bad dipstick design is that it's what allows the hydrolock to happen. They ran that return tube from the oil separator all the way to *below* the normal oil level in the crankcase. That's how if the oil separator fails, it can wind up sucking all the oil in the crankcase into the intake, hydrolocking the engine, or at least flooding it with oil. It's not rocket science to know that could happen and more importantly, that there is no need for oil to be returned under the level of the oil in the crankcase. They could have let it come in above the oil level. The traditional PCV type designs that everyone else use, the oil separation is done in the valve cover and the oil just trickles back with the rest of the lubricating oil.
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

On the E39, the oil filter housing gasket is also made out of the wrong rubber (again buna nitrile).
Just this year, finally, BMW changed *every* gasket and o ring that comes in contact with oil from Buna-N to Viton.
So, we're all waiting for someone else to buy their existing stock, and nobody wants to buy an o-ring or gasket from BMW until they get rid of all their Buna stuff.
You'd think a company with this much experience making cars would use a fifty-cent o-ring material that didn't disintegrate in contact with motor oil!
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

Yup. You know the DISA well. The only good thing about that thing is that it's easy to remove. But, BMW won't sell you the o-ring.
So, you can't even *look* at it, to see if the pin is about to be eaten in your engine, without introducing a vacuum leak!
Most of us buy the aftermarket o-rings, and every year or two, we remove the DISA to check on that pin. Once the pin gets loose, you *must* either replace the DISA or rebuilt it with the aftermarket titanium pin.
What gets me is how *cheap* that DISA is built, yet, it's so darn expensive! There is only 1 supplier in the entire world!
And, as you said, it's way overthought. I never fully understood it, but, as you said, it changes the resonance of the intake by stopping air or letting it go by, lengthening and shortening intake - but - I disconnected the electrical connector, as a test, and couldn't notice the difference.
Sometimes I think they just put these things on the car so that the guy selling the car can tell the prospective customer how cool the engine is managed.
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On 12/27/2014 7:43 PM, Danny D. wrote:

The more I consider, the more I wonder if the multipin Molex connectors need exercising?
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On Saturday, December 27, 2014 7:43:39 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

Like those guys over at the BMW forums. They are actually proud of all the failures! They come to brag about how many DISAs, expansion tanks, FSUs, etc they've changed. And if you dare to say those kinds of things shouldn't be happening in a BMW, they tell you that you're an idiot, that it's a *performance* car, that it can't be compared to a Honda. Like that explains things like the expansion tank, poor seals, blower resistor units that fail, window regulators that break on 3 doors, etc.
Like I said, from a quality standpoint, it's like Detroit in the 70s. You have to really wonder what kind of quality control system they have. Have they even heard of ISO9000? How can they not have all kind of data coming back that says they have serious problems, many of which are easy to fix, yet they keep building crap?
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trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 15:10:29 -0800:

I agree! The window regulators are an absolute abomination!
In the rear, they have a "trolley" mechanism that is made out of soft lead. It wears and falls off. Window stays put. Motor still moves trolley. Crunch. Dumb dumb dumb design.
Again, the aftermarket kicked in with a redesigned trolley.
The fronts are even worse. The cable slips off the cheap plastic pulleys. You can't buy a new pulley. You can't restring the cable (at least not easily). You generally buy a new regulator. Like clockwork. Once every two years, you buy a new window regulator.
You can't bolt the front windows down.
You'd think BMW, with decades of experience making cars, could design a simple window to go up and down without breaking.
Of course, they're fancy, in that the window will never chop off a finger, and the electronics are one-button press and the window opens or closes all the way, but that's all in the switch and molding sensors around the window, and not in the regulator at all.
An abomination it is.
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