Bryant propane heater can't possibly be wired reversed (red LED blinks constantly)

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On 12/22/2014 11:12 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Black is hot, white is neutral, and green is ground. You test at the little box I mentioned earlier.
If it's the 31 code, I suspect you've got a bad limit switch, not enough air flow, and the limit switch finally gave out. I've seen two of those, this year so far.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:24:39 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:

It's nothing to do with airflow. He says he gets the flashing from the LEDs indicating a fault as soon as power is applied, before there is even a call for heat.
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On 12/22/2014 11:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On my own furnace, I did get a fault code when it powered up, and turned out to be a bad limit.
So my personal experience is.....
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trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:51:01 -0800:

I'll check that the white (neutral) has no voltage difference with green or bare (ground), and that the black (hot) has line voltage (120VAC) to both the neutral and ground, but, like you, I am 99.9% sure that can't possibly be the problem.
The problem is "probably" described in this flow chart though...
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7506/15894320489_b56bb628a5_c.jpg
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On 12/22/2014 11:16 AM, Danny D. wrote:

With that clogged air filter, I'd be thinking bad thermal limit switch. I replaced one this year in my own furnace, and one about a week later for a customer.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 08:21:13 -0800:

OK. Fair enough. I haven't looked hard enough mainly because I really don't think the problem is a reversed polarity on the AC circuit.
First off, the thing is AC, so, "most" AC items don't care whether the hot or neutral are reversed anyway; but more importantly, nothing was done to reverse the hot and neutral.
Looking at my pictures, clearly the line voltage comes in right at the middle, from the overhanging flexible metal BX cable:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7516/15440121993_72dc89861a.jpg
So, I'll pop off the cover of the box on the inside of that connection - but - really - that will just tell me what I already know must be the case - which is that the AC "line voltage" isn't reversed.
But, I'll check it - and report back - with pictures.
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On 12/22/2014 11:29 AM, Danny D. wrote:

We'd expect nothing less from the professional you are.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 08:21:13 -0800:

I agree that hot and neutral *can* be reversed, but, from a practical standpoint, other than the safety of two-wire grounded items, it makes no difference.
So, when they're talking polarity reversal in the continuous-blink scenario, I wonder if they're talking about the DC voltage, where polarity can make a huge difference.
I doubt either one was reversed, simply because nothing was touched, but, methinks they may be talking DC and not AC anyway.
Nonetheless, I'll pop that box off in the middle of the furnace and measure the voltages (yes, I know what all the colors mean, including white, black, red, if it's there, and green or bare).
I didn't check if it's 220V, but that just means there will be two hots and a neutral, instead of a hot and a neutral.
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On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:34:27 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

No, they are talking about polarity reversed at the incoming AC, ie hot and neutral. How would you ever get DC reversed on the circuit board?
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I suggest you read my previous post that explains how the flame sensor circuit works.
You can lead a horse to water......
Mark
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Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:49:48 -0500:

I gathered the testing equipment:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7541/15895478557_72ea2b8a1c_b.jpg
I turned off the wall switch (it's turned on in this pic):
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7498/16055449886_83481232cf_b.jpg
I removed the cover of the inlex box from the BX cable:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7511/16055449596_ec594e782c_b.jpg
I separated the hot (black), neutral (white) & ground (green):
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7573/16055449486_771a9fd07a_b.jpg
Turning power on, I tested neutral to ground at 0 volts AC:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15893802108_8ba061993a_b.jpg
Turning power on, I tested hot to ground at nominally 120VAC.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8638/16079317891_f08709828b_b.jpg
Turning power on, I tested hot to neutral at nominally 120VAC.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7490/16055448766_887fb5ddc8_b.jpg
I turned the power off, and reconnected the wires as before.
If the power is reversed, it's not at the inlet BX cable connection to the unit.
What I mostly want to find is the big red button that says "reset", but I don't see it. I see a bunch of smaller limit resets, all of which I've pressed already.
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On 12/22/2014 1:10 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Sounds properly polaraized. The big reset is usually to switch off the AC power for several seconds.
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Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:31:41 -0500:

The grounds seem good, tested from green to the metal case.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8561/16081323115_c245432dbc_c.jpg
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trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 08:37:51 -0800:

The incoming power, at least at the BX cable coming into the furnace, is not reversed, but, clearly "something" is wrong, so I do appreciate the advice as to what to look for.
A few things I did in the meantime, which "may" have changed the situation is that I opened up all the vents in the house, most of which had been closed for some reason (almost certainly since last winter), which means the vent airflow was certainly stifled.
I opened all the suckers:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7563/16081369415_75ca4af62b_b.jpg
And all the blowers:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7478/16081369215_2ea422228b_b.jpg
And, I ascertained that there is no V-shaped filter in the top (left) side of the furnace itself:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7491/16081369455_3b8312f3fe_c.jpg
This lack of v-shaped filters is apparently normal, as it is described on the furnace cover sticker, which says: "Horizontal furnace: Filters are located external of furnace. Consult installer for location."
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7474/15895316579_700f645731_c.jpg
Interestingly, since most of the vents were closed, I might assume the furnace had shut off due to lack of air, but I can't find what the sticker also says is the "RESET" button: "Auxiliary limit control may be located on blower housing or top of furnace. To RESET, push button on control firmly. Refer to USERS MANUAL for more information. Call qualified serviceman if failure continues."
Also, the sticker talks about a "fusible link", which I also haven't found yet:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8575/15893966958_dba6bf6b65_c.jpg
"This furnace is equipped with a fusible element or manual reset limit switch in burnder compartment and/or draft diverter to protect against overheat conditions that can result from inadequate combustion air supply or blocked vent conditions."
Just in case, I hit all the reset buttons I could find, starting with the two manual limit switches:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7496/16080776572_77acc7329a_c.jpg
When I press the brown button on the manual limit switch, nothing happens (I had expected a spring-loaded type of interaction):
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7490/15461819153_09550d1ee2_c.jpg
I pressed the brown button on the blocked vent tube switch:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7580/16079557691_fd19b8f191_c.jpg
There were no buttons on the flame sensor and hot surface igniter, so, I merely wiggled the wires to ensure they were on snugly:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8651/16055688506_f47fe7ca9f_c.jpg
I suspect this is the backside of the fusible link, which likewise, I wiggled the wires to ensure they were on tightly:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7498/15459174234_614fb55b63_b.jpg
I also flipped the on-off switch, on the gas valve itself, a few times:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15894042378_89d011aced_c.jpg
I also wiggled all the wires and connections on the control board:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8631/16080848032_984bb7c59e_c.jpg
I'll run another series of tests, and see if any of that made a difference.
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On 12/22/2014 1:51 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Might have been someone, suggested low air flow, and a bad limit switch. Trader, was that you?
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makolber wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:24:18 -0800:

Hi Mark, I had read your suggestion and followed it as much as possible.
There is a flame sensor, and a hot igniter, which are located here:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8651/16055688506_f47fe7ca9f_c.jpg
I don't know yet how to physically 'test' them, but they do not appear to be damaged. There is absolutely no water, and the ground appears good but I need to run more tests on ground to be doubly sure.
The good news is that, after wiggling everything and opening all the vents, and replacing the batteries, I called for heat just now:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7553/15895968407_691d83ee2a_b.jpg
First the first time all winter, the igniter lit after the blower motor ran for a minute or so!
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7566/15894445560_61a8d7692c_c.jpg
Then, for the first time, the flame and igniter went on:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7554/16081730675_3f38cbbba7_c.jpg
Then, just the flame went on, for about 10 seconds or so:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7550/16079806881_c6b9901d66_c.jpg
This happened three times, in quick succession, and then the furnace went back to the blinking.
I will post the blinking video separately, as it seems to be blinking a different code now.
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Now that all that went on, it might be time to check the air flow switch. It will be something after the blower mounted on the air chamber. It is a switch that will probably show open and when you have air flow it will close. If it does show open, and never closes when the blower starts up, you have low air flow. Either the blower is not turning or the switch could be bad. If it shows open, hook the two wires together and see if the furnace stays running. Or place your meter across the wires and see if they stay closed. You can probably go to ground from one of the contacts and one side will always have voltage and the other one will not. Get on the one without the voltage and see if it ever gets the voltage.
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On Monday, December 22, 2014 2:39:04 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

It's not an air handler blower issue. He gets the flashing trouble indication as soon as power is applied, without any call for heat, without the furnace firing, without the blower ever starting.
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On 12/22/2014 2:43 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

With a new filter, and open vents, should be much improved air flow. Lets see who spots the non sequitor.
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Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:26:40 -0500:

Partial success!
After all the fiddling, I'm finally getting the thermal igniter to ignite, and the flames go on three times, and then shut off, so, that's a partial success, I guess.
First, the LED was solid red for a minute or so: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/16082030575/
But then, it quickly switched to what appeared to be a code #12: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/16081998125/
Then, the flames went on three times and then off within seconds with a resulting LED blinking code of what appears to be #34: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/16081950225/
Given all those inconsistencies within the span of 15 minutes, I'm not sure if things are changing or if there are more than one problem or if the thing just needs to settle down, because those blink codes are changing depending on what is happening with the blower.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7505/15872330868_8d4f42e6c5_c.jpg
The gas valve is definitely turned on, and there is plenty of gas on the stove and in the 500 gallon propane tank.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7508/15874015487_954311f464_k.jpg
I will doublecheck that the metal case is grounded, and, I will sand or steel wool the flame sensor and check the amperage if my Fluke 75 can get down that low.
34: Ignition proving failure: Control will try three more times before a lockout #14 occurs. If flame signal lost after trial for ignition period, blower will come on for 90-second recycle delay. Check for: - Oxide buildup on flame sensor (clean with fine sandpaper) - Proper flame sense microamps (0.5microamps DC minimum) - Gas valve turned off (manual shutoff valve, low inlet gas pressure) - Green wire MUST be connected to furnace sheet metal - Inadequate flame carryover or rough ignition
14: Ignition Lockout: Control will auto-reset after three hours. Refer to #34.
12: Blower on after power up: (115V or 24V) Blower runs for 90 seconds, if unit is powered up during a call for heat (R-W closed).
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7545/16081024172_14d3f7f629_c.jpg
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