Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

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On 12/20/2013 9:44 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:

I'm ignorant about a lot of things but I can learn. It's obvious to me that you may be suffering from H.I.S.I., Pronounced "hissy". It stands for Humor Irony Sarcasm Impairment. It afflicts most Progressive Liberal Leftist Commiecrat Freaks who don't have a clue when someone is pulling their leg. You probably missed the movie "Spaceballs", a Mel Brooks SciFi parody film. It's a shame you don't understand a catch phrase from pop culture. You poor thing. ^_^
TDD
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replying to The Daring Dufas , Let's get it right! wrote:

And you point? This is hardly the forum to vent gas. Grow Up!
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On 12/23/2013 1:48 PM, Let's get it right! wrote:

You poor thing, I suppose someone has to pity you. ^_^
TDD
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On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 22:43:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas

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replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:

Not unlisted! It's rated for 20-ampere service ... however .. you can't interface any listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug, and the appliance be considered protected unless the branch circuit protection is no greater than 15-amperes.
The regulatory agencies that inspect these services really screwed up on this little problem. It's not just a matter of swapping out circuit breakers to correct the property ... as this fix would create a nuisscannce tripping problem (because it wasn't done right to begin with).
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replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:

If you've only 20-ampere or greater circuit breakers providing branch circuit protection in your home/office, then possibly "all" listed cord and direct connected appliances and luminaires are not protected. Why protect a fractional horsepower bathroom vent fan with a 20-ampere circuit breaker when a 15-ampere circuit breaker would provide greater protection?
As long as you don't plug in a listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug and cord set into a receptacle provided with 20-ampere branch circuit protection ... everything is protected. In other words, no TV, no lights, no coffee maker, no refrigerator, no microwave, no dishwasher, no garbage disposal, no computer, no battery chargers, etc.
The "PROBLEM" is the branch circuit interface is not compatible with "Listed" appliances. That "Problem" is associated with regulatory inspectors not following NEC properly.
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On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:46:09 +0000, Let's get it right!

It's NOT a NEW problem. Virtually every outlet in the house in the past has been protected with a 15 amp fuse or breaker - and virtually every radio, TV, lamp, and small non-heating appliance has had a 16 or 18ga cord - whether or not it has an internal fuse. NONE of the non-fused items are "protected" by the circuit fuse, and if something shorts before the fuse on a fused device, the cord is not protected either.
A 20 amp receptacle is CAPABLE of safely handling 20 amps current, and can handle 2 10 amp, or 1 15 and 1 5, without being overloaded. It can also handle a 20 amp device - with its special plug - which a 15 amp outlet cannot - You still can't opperate 2 15 amp devices on the same circuitbecause the CIRCUIT is protected to 20 amps maximum.
Im a lot of Europe, each plug has it's own fuse - and a bigger fuse cannot be installed than the plug is rated for.
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replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote:

It not a matter of what a NEMA 5-15 receptacle can handle during normal operation. It's what can it handle during a non-fail-safe incident. For example, say you have to Listed devices interfaced with a NEMA 5-15 receptacle, and each listed device is rated at 6 amperes full load. Not a problem! However, what happens when one or both fail in a non-safe manner?
Circuit breakers at the plug is a good way of getting around the problem we have in the U.S. ... and the U.S. will eventually follow their lead if branch circuit protection is not done in a manner that is compatible with "Listed" equipment.
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replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:

You can't apply a direct or cord connected appliance that is rated for use from a branch circuit greater that 15-amperes and consider it "Protected" according to NEC. I verified it with U.L. I suggest you do the same. With respect to branch circuit protection, NEC is not being practiced as written.
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replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:

Articles 100 thru 400 of NEC are mandatory. Only after Article 400 can you deviate from for specific applications.
A "Listed" device is only "Protected" when applied within it's listing requirements and labeling. If you don't provide branch circuit protection compatible with the "Listed" device listing requirements and labeling, it not "Protected" according to NEC. Subsequently, if you provide 20-ampere branch circuit protection to circuit intended to interface with "Listed" devices, the "Listed" devices will not be "Protected".
A single, dedicated NEMA 5-15 receptacle is allowed to be interfaced with a 20-ampere circuit breaker ... but not multiple 15 ampere receptacles. In addition, the steady state current draw on a NEMA 5-15 receptacle should be limited to about 13-amperes (allowing for a 2-ampere margin) according to NEC. A 20-ampere circuit breaker would allow for a 7-ampere margin which would expose resistive components (such as power cords) to over 75% more real power than what they are listed at. The power cord, plug, etc. will burn up under such circumstances, and a fused "Listed" device will not protect the power cord of that "Listed" device.
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On 12/17/2013 9:45 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:

Cord overcurrent protection for listed cords and appliances is covered in 240.5-B-1 and 3. "Listed" cords and appliances are protected when listing requirements are followed.

A single 15A receptacle can not be the only receptacle on a 20A breaker. Multiple 15A receptacles are allowed.

"Continuous" loads (over 3 hours) are limited to 80%.
When there are 2 or more receptacles, the NEC also wants an 80% limit. This is not enforceable. And UL does not have that restriction. A 15A load may have a 15A plug.

A "listed device" will have a cord large enough to be adequate when the device is used according to manufacturer instructions. The cord is allowed by the NEC (240.5-B-1).
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replying to Let's get it right!, Let's get it right! wrote:

Your missing the point. If branch circuit protection in a home is 20-amperes or greater, and use NEMA 5-15 and/or NEMA 5-20 receptacles, the "Listed" appliances are not protected, and because they cannot be applied in accordance with their listing and labeling requirements.
On the other hand, if branch circuit protection in a home is 15-amperes, and use NEMA 5-15 and/or NEMA 5-20 receptacles, "Listed" appliances will be considered "Protected" according to NEC because they can be applied in accordance with their listing and labeling requirements.
This argument is a lot like which came first .... the chicken (branch circuit protection) ... and the egg ("Listed" appliances). The argument boils down to "Do you protect Listed appliances" or not? If not, get use to having latent fire/shock hazards ... and overloaded extension cord fires every X-mas!
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On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 1:44:02 PM UTC-5, Let's get it right! wrote:

If you can't have multiple 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, because someone could plug one of the everyday common devices like lamps, TV, coffee pot, etc into one, why is it that they are being installed and passed by electrical inspectors all around the country every day? Sound like the electrical inspectors who understand the code disagree with your opinion.
Your contention is that the circuit breaker has to be capable of protecting the load and it's wiring? Why then is this safety issue unique to 20 amp circuits? As has been pointed out, most lights have 18 gauge wire cords and they are connected to 15 amp receptacles, 15 amp breakers. The current carrying capability of that wire is less than the breaker rating. How is that different? When it was brought up, you just ignored it.
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On 12/19/2013 11:04 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Hey, every 8 feet there shall be every outlet known to man, with all devices properly "plugged" for "protection". Mr. "I can't get it right" obviously cannot figure out that by design devices are protected barring misuse or catastrophic failure. No that never happens. Far be it for a breaker to fail to trip, or a fuse. No, such things never happen.
It is not like a 4 amp short could start a fire, like something like that would ever happen.
Everything must be comfy and safe, just like life. Like something like that would ever happen.
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replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:

Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug, and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.
1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords). 2) the power cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.) 3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the "listed" device. 4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's "Listing". 5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.
Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection of 20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework & repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.
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On 12/16/2013 10:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/m8jmo9c
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On 12/16/2013 11:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:

Your argument is somewhat valid, but you're not going to get anywhere with it as the NEC specifically allows the use of NEMA 5-15 or combination 5-15/5-20 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.
This is the ONLY instance that I'm aware that a receptacle is allowed which accepts a plug/cord cap of a lower nominal amperage than the circuit breaker, however.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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wrote:

Note that the NEMA 5-15 receptacle *is* rated for 20A. The plug that fits into it is only rated for 15A, though. As has been point out here many times, the outlet can have two 10A appliances plugged in.
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On 12/16/2013 7:48 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Okay, I approached this thread as a joke. I mean, seriously. As you have pointed out, the breaker protects the wiring of branch circuits. That is the primary focus of the breaker since the breaker and branch circuits are the only controllable factors. Once people start plugging things into outlets, all bets are off.
With the advent of more and more electrical devices the need for a reasonable compromise in providing more outlets, without dedication, was needed and it was deemed that it was okay to increase the amperage of branch circuits (110-120v duplex receptacles to be specific). The protection and wiring of these receptacles is only to the face of the receptacle. After that, it is up to the user to not be an idiot.
The U.L. listing is the rating that a device/cord is tested at, not the rating of what it will be plugged into, nor is it the failure point that the U.L. listed device has. The listing only proves that the device will perform up to claimed rating. That is all. I could go on, but to keep it short and simple I can give an example of something that might surprise some people.
Look around your house, place of work, or any store that sells the following:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/lubg6n9
Check out the U.L. listing tag near the plug. What does it state? If it is a 16ga cord, like the one shown, it will have 13A as its tested rating. I have a cord, don't know the AWG, but it is only rated for 10A. Ever check out the 7A rating that the power cord that plugs into the power supply of a Desktop? One might think that the ampacity rating is solely because of the wire size, but they would be wrong. Rather, It is the type of insulation versus intended voltage that the insulation type of the wiring is made of. IIRC this is under table 450.5(A) for flexible cords.
Anyone ever see a clock radio, with an 18ga cord, rated for 15A? A lamp? I am not going to call "Get it Right", or whatever its nym is, a troll, but maybe it can get this right:
How much horsepower is available at a 20A receptacle?
Merry Christmas!
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On 12/16/2013 11:48 PM, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

In business offices where I've installed phone systems, networks, computers and backup power supplies, many of the women(I adore many of them), will plug a 1,500watt electric heater into the UPS and wonder where the smoke came from. There are places where I installed separate circuits just for things like electric heaters and made it clear to the gals that the only place they were to ever plug in a heater was the labeled outlet. Me and the guys have been using white vinyl plastic downspouts to carry the MC power cables, phone and network cables from the suspended ceilings in offices down to the floor. I can pre-build the vinyl power poles at the office before they're taken to the job site and installed. The reason we use the plastic downspouts is because the metal tela-power poles from manufacturers cost close to $100.00 from the electrical supply houses. If someone slams a desk into one of the expensive metal power poles, it can be dented, bent and damaged enough to require replacement. The vinyl pops back into place. ^_^
http://www.cableorganizer.com/tele-power-poles/
TDD
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