Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

Why? It allows you to use both 15A and 20A appliances.

Because it allows both sorts of appliances to be plugged in? Note that it would be against code to install this outlet on a 15A circuit.

You haven't looked hard enough. They aren't all that common because most appliances draw less than 15A, so 15A cords are plenty. However, they do exist. Many air conditioners have 20A plugs. The plugs are also available at the usual places.

Reply to
krw
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LOL!

Duh... (face palm)

Reply to
Irreverent Maximus

Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug, and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords). 2) the power cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.) 3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the "listed" device. 4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's "Listing". 5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection of

20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework & repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.
Reply to
Mis-application of listed appl

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Reply to
Irreverent Maximus

Your argument is somewhat valid, but you're not going to get anywhere with it as the NEC specifically allows the use of NEMA 5-15 or combination 5-15/5-20 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.

This is the ONLY instance that I'm aware that a receptacle is allowed which accepts a plug/cord cap of a lower nominal amperage than the circuit breaker, however.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Not unlisted! It's rated for 20-ampere service ... however .. you can't interface any listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug, and the appliance be considered protected unless the branch circuit protection is no greater than

15-amperes.

The regulatory agencies that inspect these services really screwed up on this little problem. It's not just a matter of swapping out circuit breakers to correct the property ... as this fix would create a nuisscannce tripping problem (because it wasn't done right to begin with).

Reply to
Let's get it right!

The problem isn't the listed device. The problem is branch circuit protection (20-amperes) is not compatible with the listed devices. Subsequently, the listed device is being allowed to operated beyond the parameters for which it was listed (up to 15-ampere branch circuit protection), and creates a fire/shock hazard because the listed device could/does have the opportunity to fail not-safe!

Got any listed appliances that have NEMA 5-15 plug and cord sets that are protected according to NEC? Highly likely. The regulatory inspection agency in change of inspecting your home/office probably screwed up!

Proof: On a 20-ampere branch circuit, load an extension cord until the current draw approached 20-amperes. It can be done ... and have a fire extinguisher on hand ... because it most probably will burn up ... and the circuit breaker will not trip ... until there is a dead short.

Reply to
Let's get it right!

If you've only 20-ampere or greater circuit breakers providing branch circuit protection in your home/office, then possibly "all" listed cord and direct connected appliances and luminaires are not protected. Why protect a fractional horsepower bathroom vent fan with a 20-ampere circuit breaker when a 15-ampere circuit breaker would provide greater protection?

As long as you don't plug in a listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug and cord set into a receptacle provided with 20-ampere branch circuit protection ... everything is protected. In other words, no TV, no lights, no coffee maker, no refrigerator, no microwave, no dishwasher, no garbage disposal, no computer, no battery chargers, etc.

The "PROBLEM" is the branch circuit interface is not compatible with "Listed" appliances. That "Problem" is associated with regulatory inspectors not following NEC properly.

Reply to
Let's get it right!

The regulatory inspection agency has the responsibility for 110.3B also ... and they should understand and acknowledge that Listed equipment will be interfaced with such branch circuity protection. You either go all the wall with NEC ... or accept fire and shock hazards as a daily part of life. If done in strict accordance with NEC, fire and shock hazards should not exist. This just isn't happening in the real world!

Reply to
Let's get it right!

It's NOT a NEW problem. Virtually every outlet in the house in the past has been protected with a 15 amp fuse or breaker - and virtually every radio, TV, lamp, and small non-heating appliance has had a 16 or

18ga cord - whether or not it has an internal fuse. NONE of the non-fused items are "protected" by the circuit fuse, and if something shorts before the fuse on a fused device, the cord is not protected either.

A 20 amp receptacle is CAPABLE of safely handling 20 amps current, and can handle 2 10 amp, or 1 15 and 1 5, without being overloaded. It can also handle a 20 amp device - with its special plug - which a 15 amp outlet cannot - You still can't opperate 2 15 amp devices on the same circuitbecause the CIRCUIT is protected to 20 amps maximum.

Im a lot of Europe, each plug has it's own fuse - and a bigger fuse cannot be installed than the plug is rated for.

Reply to
clare

Note that the NEMA 5-15 receptacle *is* rated for 20A. The plug that fits into it is only rated for 15A, though. As has been point out here many times, the outlet can have two 10A appliances plugged in.

Reply to
krw

Not "easily", but it's possible. The flaw in your argument is that the circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring in the house, not the appliance plugged into it.

How does a "listed appliance" cord with branch protection of 20A get a NEMA 5-15 plug on it? That sounds very fishy.

Reply to
krw

Okay, I approached this thread as a joke. I mean, seriously. As you have pointed out, the breaker protects the wiring of branch circuits. That is the primary focus of the breaker since the breaker and branch circuits are the only controllable factors. Once people start plugging things into outlets, all bets are off.

With the advent of more and more electrical devices the need for a reasonable compromise in providing more outlets, without dedication, was needed and it was deemed that it was okay to increase the amperage of branch circuits (110-120v duplex receptacles to be specific). The protection and wiring of these receptacles is only to the face of the receptacle. After that, it is up to the user to not be an idiot.

The U.L. listing is the rating that a device/cord is tested at, not the rating of what it will be plugged into, nor is it the failure point that the U.L. listed device has. The listing only proves that the device will perform up to claimed rating. That is all. I could go on, but to keep it short and simple I can give an example of something that might surprise some people.

Look around your house, place of work, or any store that sells the following:

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Check out the U.L. listing tag near the plug. What does it state? If it is a 16ga cord, like the one shown, it will have 13A as its tested rating. I have a cord, don't know the AWG, but it is only rated for 10A. Ever check out the 7A rating that the power cord that plugs into the power supply of a Desktop? One might think that the ampacity rating is solely because of the wire size, but they would be wrong. Rather, It is the type of insulation versus intended voltage that the insulation type of the wiring is made of. IIRC this is under table 450.5(A) for flexible cords.

Anyone ever see a clock radio, with an 18ga cord, rated for 15A? A lamp? I am not going to call "Get it Right", or whatever its nym is, a troll, but maybe it can get this right:

How much horsepower is available at a 20A receptacle?

Merry Christmas!

Reply to
Irreverent Maximus

In business offices where I've installed phone systems, networks, computers and backup power supplies, many of the women(I adore many of them), will plug a 1,500watt electric heater into the UPS and wonder where the smoke came from. There are places where I installed separate circuits just for things like electric heaters and made it clear to the gals that the only place they were to ever plug in a heater was the labeled outlet. Me and the guys have been using white vinyl plastic downspouts to carry the MC power cables, phone and network cables from the suspended ceilings in offices down to the floor. I can pre-build the vinyl power poles at the office before they're taken to the job site and installed. The reason we use the plastic downspouts is because the metal tela-power poles from manufacturers cost close to $100.00 from the electrical supply houses. If someone slams a desk into one of the expensive metal power poles, it can be dented, bent and damaged enough to require replacement. The vinyl pops back into place. ^_^

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TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

You can't apply a direct or cord connected appliance that is rated for use from a branch circuit greater that 15-amperes and consider it "Protected" according to NEC. I verified it with U.L. I suggest you do the same. With respect to branch circuit protection, NEC is not being practiced as written.

Reply to
Let's get it right!

Articles 100 thru 400 of NEC are mandatory. Only after Article 400 can you deviate from for specific applications.

A "Listed" device is only "Protected" when applied within it's listing requirements and labeling. If you don't provide branch circuit protection compatible with the "Listed" device listing requirements and labeling, it not "Protected" according to NEC. Subsequently, if you provide 20-ampere branch circuit protection to circuit intended to interface with "Listed" devices, the "Listed" devices will not be "Protected".

A single, dedicated NEMA 5-15 receptacle is allowed to be interfaced with a

20-ampere circuit breaker ... but not multiple 15 ampere receptacles. In addition, the steady state current draw on a NEMA 5-15 receptacle should be limited to about 13-amperes (allowing for a 2-ampere margin) according to NEC. A 20-ampere circuit breaker would allow for a 7-ampere margin which would expose resistive components (such as power cords) to over 75% more real power than what they are listed at. The power cord, plug, etc. will burn up under such circumstances, and a fused "Listed" device will not protect the power cord of that "Listed" device.
Reply to
Let's get it right!

I would not bother. Simply get the appropriate replacement panel and do th e replacement. Many of the wires will not be long enough to reach your "te mporary" location and you will have to make the splice in the old box. And your "temporary" box will be sub panel requiring isolated ground. Of cour se you will find electricians that are fine with your plan because they wor k by the hour.

If you need to upgrade the service from outside from 100 to 200 you can do that ahead of time. There is nothing that prevents you from connecting a 1

00amp main to 200amp service. Then replace the panel. If you don't have t he money to do it, start saving until you do. It's a one day job if the ma terials are on site.
Reply to
jamesgang

Extension cords may have an amp rating that is the current the end user can use the cord at. If there is a 15A rating that does not mean the cord can not be used on a 20A circuit. The cord would have to be marked "for use only on 15A circuits". I have never seen such a cord, and considering the way UL and the NEC work I doubt they exist.

Fire marshals can enforce UL requirements. Your opinion is not consistent with UL requirements.

Requirements are not being ignored. You just don't understand UL and NEC requirements.

Anyone can submit a code change proposal.

And anyone can petition the UL to change their standards.

I am sure your proposals will be appropriately considered.

Reply to
bud--

Listed extension cords made with #18 wire are readily available. The rating in the NEC for #18 cord is 10A (400.5). According to you, that can't be used on even a 15A breaker.

The requirements for overcurrent protection of cords is in 240.5. There are several methods of protection. "Listed" cords are considered protected (240.5-B-3). UL know that cords with a 15A plug may be used on

20A circuits. The system is working as intended. The cord will have a current or wattage rating. It up to the user to use the cord according to the ratings provided.

For cordsets that we put together (field assembly), the wire must be #16 or larger on a 20A circuit (240.5-B-4). The NEC rating for #16 is 13A (400.5). The NEC explicitly allows cords rated 13A on a 20A breaker.

Yes, it is highly likely.

Listed appliance (and lamps, etc) will have a cord large enough to supply the appliance when used as instructed. Cords of listed appliance cords are considered protected (240.5-B-1).

Appliances are protected as UL and the NEC intended.

Nonsense. They are enforcing the code as written.

Your breakers may only trip on dead shorts. Mine trip at the rated current.

And I use cords according to their rating.

Reply to
bud--

As I have already explained, "listed" devices will be "approved" by the AHJ under 110.2.

110.3 (inspection) is irrelevant to listed devices -inspectors do not "inspect" listed devices. They determine that the listed devices are used according to the manufactures instructions and the conditions of listing.

The system is working as intended by the NEC and UL.

Anyone can submit a code change proposal.

And anyone can petition the UL to change their standards.

I am sure your proposals will be appropriately considered.

Reply to
bud--

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