Bosch Tankless....?

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I have a Ng Bosck 125 , a tankless is most definatly the way to go. I will get a 4 -5 yr payback. In summer with gas cooking and dryer my Ng bill is 4-7$. Tanks are less efficient than you think. Look at the Energy Factor, Tanks are around 50-60, the Bosch is 80, tanks looke heat up their chimney and loose efficiency every year from scale. If you have the money and its a larger residence get a Takagi or Rinnai with remote thermostat, if not the small Bosch works, I have the unit with 2 D cells for ignition, mine are 4 years old and still fire it, go for it, I save 15-20 a month over a tank.
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On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:50:48 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Mind if I ask, what area of the country are you in?
tom
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I think a tankless sounds good for You.. I left the tanked propane wh in place(disconnected and shut down) until the tankless proves its'self this winter,,so far it handles the colder incoming water just fine..If You're using a propane whole house unit I would think it will handle even more..I just mounted it close to the tanked and added a bit of copper to each line,ran the 6wire and let the Electrician hook it up..Piece of cake and only cost , $250-wh , about $75-wire , 2 npt connectors ,1/2 hour electricians' time and a bit of My time..When I remove the old tanked My time will be more of course.. Dean
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> Išm considering such a unit. Išm a single guy and not home all that

You already said you were using propane, Larry. Correct me if I'm wrong. Tankless models are available in propane both with standing pilot and electronic.
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AFAIK, all tankless models are electronic ignition, and all tank models have pilots. It would seem that a good compromise would be a tank with electronic ignition, but as best I can tell such a unit does not exist. If anyone knows different please post a polite correction.
--
Larry Weil
Lake Wobegone, NH
  Click to see the full signature.
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Larry Weil wrote:

I had a power vent water heater and it didn't have a standing pilot. It lit when heat was called for and a cycle like a furnace started. Vent would start then pilot would light then the burner would fire until heat was satisfied then the burner would go out then a few seconds later the vent would power down.
Rich
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I had one installed about two months ago.
And all said and done it is OK.
There are some things you will need to get use to however.
It does take a bit more time for hot water to arrive at faucet.
And the flow of water must be at least 3/4 gallon per minuet for it to heat.
This drives my wife nuts as she likes to run a slow stream of hot water while she does dishes.
Some of the pluses are never ending hot water.
It heats as it goes so you never run out.
Another thing I like is the temperature control.
It is so easily changed.
I mounted ours in the laundry area rather than in the basement with the heater.
This allows me to adjust the temperature with ease depending on the situation.
But to be honest if I could go back in time and do it over again I would most likely stay with a tank water heater.
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In cold climates a tankless may work fine in summer when the incoming water temp is 55 degrees but have great troubles in the winter when the water is 40 degrees.
lowes only sells the premium model since too many came back when they sold the cheaper ones./ Have a friend who worked at lowes, returned merchandise is a major pain and cost so they drop products that get returned too frequently.
Ina warter emergency like terrorism or broken mains a standard hot water tank is a excellent source of emergency water.
humans can live, unhappily for months with no food but die within days from no water. Katrina proves we cant depend on government in a emergency
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wrote:

Sorry, 'top end' meant their largest residential model for bosch tankless. Bosch by itself seems premium.
tom
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The cheap 117000btu Bosch heats 38f incomming to a point where you need to add cold water for a shower. Of course it works, most complaints are from idiots who never checked gas supply in winter with competing apliances on, so there unit never reaches 100%
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On Feb 3, 5:36?pm, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

http://www.nyletherm.com/whitepaper2.pdf
According to this the biggest savings possible is under 60 bucks a year under IDEAL circumstances.
Before calling people idiots try reading the PDF
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Many people, including myself, have had such problems. As for myself, I bought a Bosch and only used it for one season before replacing with a tank. It performed as advertised since it did provide a continuous supply of "hot" water. I'm sure it also used less gas than a tank. I did not like it though.
It did not by any stretch beat the performance of the heater that came before or after. All it ever did was supply this barely hot water that's just hot enough to take a shower and that was it. No cold water or just the least amount would be needed to achieve a nice shower. In short, it gave me a lousy shower, barely hot water and low volume.
Even worse was the dishes which are farther away from the tank. The consumer style heater just didn't put out enough hot water fast enough for me, not even close. There are really high end units which put out more water and they are surely better. I just doubt any of them will put out scalding hot water by the hundreds of gallons like a tank model will. They will just give you a supply of that 160 degree water and you can never turn it up or ask for more. My tank heater when turned up to it's highest setting will give me what seems to be an unlimited supply of scalding hot water. I doubt if any tankless will come up to that standard.
If your overriding concern is conservation then no one will disagree. Tankless will save you some depending on your usage since it uses no fuel when it is not in use. But the more you use it the more the advantage would shrink.
My tank heater has a "vacation" setting and can be turned up or down to achieve a desire temp. A higher temp essentially gives you more hot water since you can mix in more cold. None of these options exist with the tankless. So, I don't like the tankless, obviously. But if you buy a top of the line unit you will likely have better luck than I did. They only cost about 5 or 10 times more than a tank. How much conservation can you afford?
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Here is an interesting paper that's worth reading; it's called "What's The Big Deal About Tankless Water Heaters?"
http://www.nyletherm.com/whitepaper2.pdf
John
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The problem with My first try was a very low output unit,,too low for My needs and installation location and all My fault..The 2nd try/ unit works good for what I need and might/should/could prove energy efficient enough..As far as recouping the cost of the 2nd try I have'nt had time to determine that.. If it stands the test of time I'll be happyier and say so,,if not I'll be a LOUD Enemy of tankless.. Maybe Your local Plumbers do'nt want to risk their name attached to a relatively untried practice/product that comes complete with bad press (deserved or otherwise),,You might need to look farther away to find someone willing to do it or find an up-n-coming Plumber that needs the work.. Dean
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http://www.nyletherm.com/whitepaper2.pdf
Excellent discussions of pros and cons, it concluded what I did, for more hot water buy a larger higher BTU tank!
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wrote:

A good article, this pretty much confirms my opinion of these as well.
From a different perspective, I have used this sort of system extensively in Germany. They do require some adjustments to get used to. For example:
Forget using a slow trickle of hot or even lukewarm water - it just isn't possible. These have a modulating burner, but it can only be throttled down so far. They require a minimum flow through the unit before it will kick on. So if, like me, you use a trickle of lukewarm water while peeling potatoes you either have to use cold water and numb your hands, or select a much faster flow rate and waste both water and energy. :-(
In the shower, the technique is to turn the hot water on full (typically flow limited) and do your temperature adjustment with the cold water. Attempting to adjust the hot water is often counterproductive - reduce the hot water a smidge, and it may just get hotter! Yes they are modulating burners, but not perfectly so. :-(
Something I've yet to see here in the US, but common in Germany, is for the same unit to also provide the hot water to the wall radiators for heating. They kick out some impressive heat and quickly warmup a room - faster than my baseboard system!
While I don't consider the cost of the tankless heater to be worthwhile as simply a replacement for the common water heater, I would consider it an economical replacement for my boiler. Their BTU input rate is plenty sufficient, the temperature rise required is low, however it would need to do 180F output. What am I missing? Why do I not see them being used in this manner in the US?
Gary
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