Bosch Tankless....?

[LayPerson Tom]

Ok, I have an older gas water heater (14 years), with a little one on the way, and weird sound coming from it, I thought it was time to start getting estimates from water heater replacers. I ended up deciding on replacing my tanked for tankless. The tankless will pay for teh cost difference, with the tax credit and fuel savings, over several years.

Ok, so I found out that lowes only sells the top end natural gas model, so I found a supplier for the version I wanted. Now I'm in a pickle. Bosch's warrantiy seems to only cover professional installs. I've had one plumber stand me up, the one that lowes uses(called on my own), and this has given me time to think, and wonder. Even if I'm sure about the tankless is cheaper, by paying for itself, over time, why am I having a hard time getting people to connect it?

Has anone had any problems with tankless?

tom

[hallerb]

We REALLY need a FAQ on this.

Now first you will need a large gas supply line and perhaps a larger gas meter. May need new flue, unless its a wall mount direct vent since the BTU is WAY more than even a standard furnace. All of this is costly. Bosch requires pro install because few DIYers are up to doing it exactly right.

Second is energy savings.

Now true it appears more efficent but the stand by losses in a modern standard tank are really low. I turned mine off during some renovations and still had pretty hot water 2 days later.

Now if your standard tank is in a heated space, the standby heat loss of your tank helps heat your home so its not really lost. Although in the summer they can add slightly to AC load.

Payback. A new adquate tankless with proper install perhaps 2 grand, a new regular tank 500 bucks.

This means you must save 1500 bucks in gas before you begin saving a dime. Well the longest tankless warranty is 10 years, so all savings are limited to this timeframe.

Worse is there local service for bosch? tankless are complex, regular tanks rarely fail till its time to replace them, tankless having more complex systems have greater chance for failure.

With a standard tank, a failure usually leaves you with enough hot water for a shower.

A tankless, and power failure leaves you no hot water:( a few tankless have other methods to power them during a power failure. Frankly its nice always having hot water, we had a 3 day power failure here one time:(

Is your goal endless hot water? Then go with a larger high output tank. My 50 gallon 75,000 BTU tank comes close, I would have gone to

75 gallons but didnt have the space.

Finally the noise in your old tank is deposits in the bottom boiling sound. They dont effect tank life but do decrease efficency and poossibly capacity.

If you have endless hot water some will use more hot water showering forever, teenagers espically.

In europe where thankless are popular they are the low end, regular tanks are considered better.

[greg6755]

I had one installed about two months ago.

And all said and done it is OK.

There are some things you will need to get use to however.

It does take a bit more time for hot water to arrive at faucet.

And the flow of water must be at least 3/4 gallon per minuet for it to heat.

This drives my wife nuts as she likes to run a slow stream of hot water while she does dishes.

Some of the pluses are never ending hot water.

It heats as it goes so you never run out.

Another thing I like is the temperature control.

It is so easily changed.

I mounted ours in the laundry area rather than in the basement with the heater.

This allows me to adjust the temperature with ease depending on the situation.

But to be honest if I could go back in time and do it over again I would most likely stay with a tank water heater.

[hallerb]

In cold climates a tankless may work fine in summer when the incoming water temp is 55 degrees but have great troubles in the winter when the water is 40 degrees.

lowes only sells the premium model since too many came back when they sold the cheaper ones./ Have a friend who worked at lowes, returned merchandise is a major pain and cost so they drop products that get returned too frequently.

Ina warter emergency like terrorism or broken mains a standard hot water tank is a excellent source of emergency water.

humans can live, unhappily for months with no food but die within days from no water. Katrina proves we cant depend on government in a emergency

[Lawrence]

Many people, including myself, have had such problems. As for myself, I bought a Bosch and only used it for one season before replacing with a tank. It performed as advertised since it did provide a continuous supply of "hot" water. I'm sure it also used less gas than a tank. I did not like it though.

It did not by any stretch beat the performance of the heater that came before or after. All it ever did was supply this barely hot water that's just hot enough to take a shower and that was it. No cold water or just the least amount would be needed to achieve a nice shower. In short, it gave me a lousy shower, barely hot water and low volume.

Even worse was the dishes which are farther away from the tank. The consumer style heater just didn't put out enough hot water fast enough for me, not even close. There are really high end units which put out more water and they are surely better. I just doubt any of them will put out scalding hot water by the hundreds of gallons like a tank model will. They will just give you a supply of that 160 degree water and you can never turn it up or ask for more. My tank heater when turned up to it's highest setting will give me what seems to be an unlimited supply of scalding hot water. I doubt if any tankless will come up to that standard.

If your overriding concern is conservation then no one will disagree. Tankless will save you some depending on your usage since it uses no fuel when it is not in use. But the more you use it the more the advantage would shrink.

My tank heater has a "vacation" setting and can be turned up or down to achieve a desire temp. A higher temp essentially gives you more hot water since you can mix in more cold. None of these options exist with the tankless. So, I don't like the tankless, obviously. But if you buy a top of the line unit you will likely have better luck than I did. They only cost about 5 or 10 times more than a tank. How much conservation can you afford?

[John~Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â]

Here is an interesting paper that's worth reading; it's called "What's The Big Deal About Tankless Water Heaters?"

John

[Dean]

The problem with My first try was a very low output unit,,too low for My needs and installation location and all My fault..The 2nd try/ unit works good for what I need and might/should/could prove energy efficient enough..As far as recouping the cost of the 2nd try I have'nt had time to determine that.. If it stands the test of time I'll be happyier and say so,,if not I'll be a LOUD Enemy of tankless.. Maybe Your local Plumbers do'nt want to risk their name attached to a relatively untried practice/product that comes complete with bad press (deserved or otherwise),,You might need to look farther away to find someone willing to do it or find an up-n-coming Plumber that needs the work.. Dean

[hallerb]

Excellent discussions of pros and cons, it concluded what I did, for more hot water buy a larger higher BTU tank!

[LayPerson Tom]

Sorry, 'top end' meant their largest residential model for bosch tankless. Bosch by itself seems premium.

tom

[m Ransley]

The cheap 117000btu Bosch heats 38f incomming to a point where you need to add cold water for a shower. Of course it works, most complaints are from idiots who never checked gas supply in winter with competing apliances on, so there unit never reaches 100%

[LayPerson Tom]

I used Bosch's comparison rating of their 125HX against a high efficiency 40 gall tank (I currently only have a 38 gal). With the savings about about 90 bucks a year, the 300 tax credit, and the 12 year warrenty it would pay for itself quickly (several years). So 12 years with a tank verses tankless seemed like it was more expensive to buy a tanked one.

I'm guessing this is mute, since the only local lowes qualified gas-cert plumber didn't call, or show up the today, a second day. So how are the Home Depot contractors?

:p

[hallerb]

According to this the biggest savings possible is under 60 bucks a year under IDEAL circumstances.

Before calling people idiots try reading the PDF

[hallerb]

So whats the TOTAL cost of install? upgrades including gas and flue?

[LayPerson Tom]

Prices so far. Unit 599, fan upgrade 289, and install ?. A highend tanked water heater(about 80 gallons) was estimated at 350.

The pay back, 300 tax credit, and about a 100 per year in gas savings. I'm guessing the fuel savings will go up with time, because I believe gas prices will increase over the next decade.

So, from these figures, I might have a unit paying me back fast, compared to the operating costs of a 40 gallon tank water heater, and its install price. Looks good on paper, huh?

tom

[m Ransley]

All you guys "guess " wrong , My Bosch 117000 btu is giving me a 4-5 yr payback, It heats more than I need even with 36f incomming, its copper coil should last 30 yrs. It does not loose eficiency every year due to scale. Tanks are for the uninformed...

[hallerb]

For the OP, you state you will need a power vent, in the event of a power failure will NO hot shower bug you? the 125HX is self powered but without power for the forced vent it wouldnt heat water...... perhaps you can use the existing chimney but its likely too small for

117,000 BTU

what part of the country are you in? if its from northern cold areas you may have trouble when the incoming water temp is cold, like late winter.

The 125HX is for a single faucet etc at one time. any chance 2 things will be occuring together? like showering while someone washes their hands?

you shower people or tub? Tub bathers have a advantage they can slow the flow taking longer to fill tub but warmer

a shower person espically if they dont use the flow restrictor in the shower head or prefer the old nice high flow heads like I do can max out the heater.

the warranty is 12 years on the heat exchanger but just 2 years on parts. they appear pricey and if you have a failure you having no hot water at all will probably try to buy locally. Do you have the skills to dagnose and repair these complex units? appears if you buy the listed parts they cost several times the cost of the complete unit

Your having trouble getting one installed, WHAT ABOUT TIMELY SERVICE? How would you feel about no hot water for a week:(

Now I like good hot showers with my water waster shower head, its near

3 gallons per minute. With my incoming water temp in pittsburgh right now about 42 degrees and 120 degree shower temp I would be limited to about 2 gallons per minute:( at about a 90 degree rise.From their chart.

The incoming gas line will have to be larger than your existing tank,

40K BTU is way smaller and needs a smaller gas line than 117BTU and that requires a larger gas line probably going directly back to the meter

Honestly I think you should go ahead and buy one, report back here on how it goes. I DO SUGGEST you leave the space where your existing tank is open for future use!

If you decide after awhile the tankless isnt your style then leave it in place, install a new standard tank where you existing one sits and use the tankless as a pre heater for your regular tank! That way you will NEVER run out of hot water:)

I suspect you have trouble finmding plumbers to install a tankless or reluctant to do it because they have been burned in the past with unhappy customers and dont want the hassle....

GOOD LUCK AND LET US KNOW THE RESULTS!

[LayPerson Tom]

I currently have a power vented tank water heater. So no diff.

Checked, 4" right size for new unit, with power vent. Also, we are only talking 5" of exposed flue, and the exit is exessible for re doing, if necessary.

Eastern Pa.

It is rated up to 4.3 gallons. A shower might be a while, but washing hands is only like 30 secs, if you are commited. ;)

Shower, and tub (5 year old likes boats ;) ).

All my showheads have the required low flowrates per the non-domestic-security orient government wants.

Exactly, I think this a reality check. Bosch has registered techs, but they are about 50 miles form me.

Not too keen, that's why looking at replacing this one at end of life, not past end of life.

Exactly, this is why I dind't order one. I tried to purchase a detailed estimate/report. However it's now 9:30 the third day, no call. so it appears it doesn't matter. Lowes looks like it's out, since he was their ownly gas-certified plumber.

Unfinished basement.

Will do, Just collecting information now. I'm guessing only have a 38 gallon tank has made me negative to running out of hot water too early.

tom

[hallerb]

?I'm guessing only have a 38

If you had a 50 gallon high BTU unit yiu wouldnt be having this discussioin. Or a 75 gallon 40K BTU unit

Where did you get 4.3 gallons the bosch PDF says max its 50 degrees rise at 3.6 gallons.

If incoming water was a warm 50 degrees thats only 100 out which being so close to human body temp will be cold...

I also seriously question your 90 buck savings a year:(

[LayPerson Tom]

Thanks, just accumulating information right now. The information in the link you provided doesn't seem to match up with the brochure I picked up.

Kinda hard to make an educated guess with differing information from the manufacturer's material.

thanks,

tom

[hallerb]

If you go tankless I would go at east a little higher BTU unit, costs little may help your satisfaction:)

With your current tank heater in a power failure you still have enough water in the tank for a couple quick showers.

With a tankless you have absolurtely no hot water at all.

I guess I am so interested since I have considered this in the past and may again in the future.

Saving energy and money is one of my things but not at the cost of a freezing shower.... YUK!

Let us know what you decide!