Bosch Tankless....?

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Ok, I have an older gas water heater (14 years), with a little one on the way, and weird sound coming from it, I thought it was time to start getting estimates from water heater replacers. I ended up deciding on replacing my tanked for tankless. The tankless will pay for teh cost difference, with the tax credit and fuel savings, over several years.
Ok, so I found out that lowes only sells the top end natural gas model, so I found a supplier for the version I wanted. Now I'm in a pickle. Bosch's warrantiy seems to only cover professional installs. I've had one plumber stand me up, the one that lowes uses(called on my own), and this has given me time to think, and wonder. Even if I'm sure about the tankless is cheaper, by paying for itself, over time, why am I having a hard time getting people to connect it?
Has anone had any problems with tankless?
tom
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We REALLY need a FAQ on this.
Now first you will need a large gas supply line and perhaps a larger gas meter. May need new flue, unless its a wall mount direct vent since the BTU is WAY more than even a standard furnace. All of this is costly. Bosch requires pro install because few DIYers are up to doing it exactly right.
Second is energy savings.
Now true it appears more efficent but the stand by losses in a modern standard tank are really low. I turned mine off during some renovations and still had pretty hot water 2 days later.
Now if your standard tank is in a heated space, the standby heat loss of your tank helps heat your home so its not really lost. Although in the summer they can add slightly to AC load.
Payback. A new adquate tankless with proper install perhaps 2 grand, a new regular tank 500 bucks.
This means you must save 1500 bucks in gas before you begin saving a dime. Well the longest tankless warranty is 10 years, so all savings are limited to this timeframe.
Worse is there local service for bosch? tankless are complex, regular tanks rarely fail till its time to replace them, tankless having more complex systems have greater chance for failure.
With a standard tank, a failure usually leaves you with enough hot water for a shower.
A tankless, and power failure leaves you no hot water:( a few tankless have other methods to power them during a power failure. Frankly its nice always having hot water, we had a 3 day power failure here one time:(
Is your goal endless hot water? Then go with a larger high output tank. My 50 gallon 75,000 BTU tank comes close, I would have gone to 75 gallons but didnt have the space.
Finally the noise in your old tank is deposits in the bottom boiling sound. They dont effect tank life but do decrease efficency and poossibly capacity.
If you have endless hot water some will use more hot water showering forever, teenagers espically.
In europe where thankless are popular they are the low end, regular tanks are considered better.
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wrote:

I used Bosch's comparison rating of their 125HX against a high efficiency 40 gall tank (I currently only have a 38 gal). With the savings about about 90 bucks a year, the 300 tax credit, and the 12 year warrenty it would pay for itself quickly (several years). So 12 years with a tank verses tankless seemed like it was more expensive to buy a tanked one.
I'm guessing this is mute, since the only local lowes qualified gas-cert plumber didn't call, or show up the today, a second day. So how are the Home Depot contractors?
:p
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So whats the TOTAL cost of install? upgrades including gas and flue?
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wrote:

Prices so far. Unit 599, fan upgrade 289, and install ?. A highend tanked water heater(about 80 gallons) was estimated at 350.
The pay back, 300 tax credit, and about a 100 per year in gas savings. I'm guessing the fuel savings will go up with time, because I believe gas prices will increase over the next decade.
So, from these figures, I might have a unit paying me back fast, compared to the operating costs of a 40 gallon tank water heater, and its install price. Looks good on paper, huh?
tom
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All you guys "guess " wrong , My Bosch 117000 btu is giving me a 4-5 yr payback, It heats more than I need even with 36f incomming, its copper coil should last 30 yrs. It does not loose eficiency every year due to scale. Tanks are for the uninformed...
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For the OP, you state you will need a power vent, in the event of a power failure will NO hot shower bug you? the 125HX is self powered but without power for the forced vent it wouldnt heat water...... perhaps you can use the existing chimney but its likely too small for 117,000 BTU
what part of the country are you in? if its from northern cold areas you may have trouble when the incoming water temp is cold, like late winter.
The 125HX is for a single faucet etc at one time. any chance 2 things will be occuring together? like showering while someone washes their hands?
you shower people or tub? Tub bathers have a advantage they can slow the flow taking longer to fill tub but warmer
a shower person espically if they dont use the flow restrictor in the shower head or prefer the old nice high flow heads like I do can max out the heater.
the warranty is 12 years on the heat exchanger but just 2 years on parts. they appear pricey and if you have a failure you having no hot water at all will probably try to buy locally. Do you have the skills to dagnose and repair these complex units? appears if you buy the listed parts they cost several times the cost of the complete unit
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/parts/bosch125hxpartsbuy.asp
Your having trouble getting one installed, WHAT ABOUT TIMELY SERVICE? How would you feel about no hot water for a week:(
Now I like good hot showers with my water waster shower head, its near 3 gallons per minute. With my incoming water temp in pittsburgh right now about 42 degrees and 120 degree shower temp I would be limited to about 2 gallons per minute:( at about a 90 degree rise.From their chart.
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/parts/bosch125hxpartsbuy.asp
The incoming gas line will have to be larger than your existing tank, 40K BTU is way smaller and needs a smaller gas line than 117BTU and that requires a larger gas line probably going directly back to the meter
Honestly I think you should go ahead and buy one, report back here on how it goes. I DO SUGGEST you leave the space where your existing tank is open for future use!
If you decide after awhile the tankless isnt your style then leave it in place, install a new standard tank where you existing one sits and use the tankless as a pre heater for your regular tank! That way you will NEVER run out of hot water:)
I suspect you have trouble finmding plumbers to install a tankless or reluctant to do it because they have been burned in the past with unhappy customers and dont want the hassle....
GOOD LUCK AND LET US KNOW THE RESULTS!
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wrote:

I currently have a power vented tank water heater. So no diff.

Checked, 4" right size for new unit, with power vent. Also, we are only talking 5" of exposed flue, and the exit is exessible for re doing, if necessary.

Eastern Pa.

It is rated up to 4.3 gallons. A shower might be a while, but washing hands is only like 30 secs, if you are commited. ;)

Shower, and tub (5 year old likes boats ;) ).

All my showheads have the required low flowrates per the non-domestic-security orient government wants.

Exactly, I think this a reality check. Bosch has registered techs, but they are about 50 miles form me.

Not too keen, that's why looking at replacing this one at end of life, not past end of life.

Exactly, this is why I dind't order one. I tried to purchase a detailed estimate/report. However it's now 9:30 the third day, no call. so it appears it doesn't matter. Lowes looks like it's out, since he was their ownly gas-certified plumber.

Unfinished basement.

Will do, Just collecting information now. I'm guessing only have a 38 gallon tank has made me negative to running out of hot water too early.
tom
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?I'm guessing only have a 38

If you had a 50 gallon high BTU unit yiu wouldnt be having this discussioin. Or a 75 gallon 40K BTU unit
Where did you get 4.3 gallons the bosch PDF says max its 50 degrees rise at 3.6 gallons.
If incoming water was a warm 50 degrees thats only 100 out which being so close to human body temp will be cold...
I also seriously question your 90 buck savings a year:(
http://www.boschhotwater.com/Portals/7/Marketing/125HXSellSheet.pdf
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wrote:

Thanks, just accumulating information right now. The information in the link you provided doesn't seem to match up with the brochure I picked up.
Kinda hard to make an educated guess with differing information from the manufacturer's material.
thanks,
tom
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Thats wierd the link I provided is boschs direct website.
I have a bosch disahwasher it works great, is QUIET, but its complex, no local service other than Sears who costs a fortune:(
Its been a mixed bag, no local parts is a big hassle, sears mailorder the only available here with costly parts in modules and no friendlky appliance parts guy at the counter for advice.
wonder if consumer reports has evaluated them?
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If you go tankless I would go at east a little higher BTU unit, costs little may help your satisfaction:)
With your current tank heater in a power failure you still have enough water in the tank for a couple quick showers.
With a tankless you have absolurtely no hot water at all.
I guess I am so interested since I have considered this in the past and may again in the future.
Saving energy and money is one of my things but not at the cost of a freezing shower.... YUK!
Let us know what you decide!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I have to jump in here. The Bosch doesn't need electric to run it has its own piezo ligher that ignites when water passes over a wheel. It has no cords and is only dependant on water flow. I can't believe people are basing there buying decisions on power outages! Get a generator if being without power is going to kill you for a couple of days. I remember when a tornado came through my area and 29 people died, shower wasn't the first thing on my list, keeping my family alive was.
Rich
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Well he REQUIRES a POWER VENT, when your tankless and have no power you have ABSOLUTELY no hot water at all:(
Power vent requires working power line.....
After the first day of a disaster getting some things back to normal really help, no shower after working hard all day cleaning up yours and neighbors mess, shower helps...
Some years ago we were powerless for over 3 days, big mess. worked cleaning up downed trees for myself and my neighbors one of which is in her 80s and blind. her phone line was down and broke I managed to splice it so she had phone, her lifeline as she said
I bought a generator and inverter for next disaster.
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The basic 125HX, the model Ilooked at, requires no electricity. It willoperate in a power failure. However for my home, I have horizontal venting, so I require a fan, and have lived without power for a while. No big deal, I had not required to take a shower at the moments of power gone.
Personally with it outside being 18 degrees, I would more worry about my heat. ;)
tom
P.S. Has global warming gone due to Democrats legislating it's elmination, or is weather weather , outside of our control? ;)
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my point is that with no power for the fan the heater wouldnt operate either.......
hope you never have a multi day power failure.
the power companies have cut back the number of line crews trucks and everything around here, depending on mutual aid from other areas when disaster strikes, but even with aid it adds days to response time since the crews have to come with their trucks and equiptement.
with heaver weather global warming appearing worse things may get terrible.
NASA scientists decided global warming was going on yers ago, the bush admnstration silenced them and re wrote their reports to minimize the hazards.
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wrote:

imho,
I heard the northern hemisphere is warming up, because of the more land mass, but the southern hemisphere is cooling down. Evident of Antiartica overall growing ice sheet. Rumors has it, that tall buildings and wind mills have prevented the natural convection that evened out temperatures. Should we ban both?
:p
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wrote:

This has been the case for over a decade. When I worked for ....., not naming them, they had already cut crews from 3 per truck to 2, and were then cutting the number of trucks. All part of the down sizing of the mid 90's.
I guess I should get a generator.
tom

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$90 a year, or about 25 c a day seems like no savings compared to the disadvantages described in this thread and in the cited article, such as lukewarm showers and not being able to use multiple appliances or showers at the same time. Wouldn't two people going to work in the morning want to shower at the same time if two bathrooms are available?
Given that the combustion efficiencies are the same for tank and tankless heaters, the difference in efficiency measured by the energy factor is because of heat loss from the stored hot water. In the colder climates, this is no loss, since it will heat the home and could keep the water in the pipes from freezing. For the summer, there are heater blankets, and since the inlet water is warmer then, the heater temperature can be turned down, decreasing the heat loss.
I wonder though if there are tank heaters with a "booster" burner for high demand periods.
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Im considering such a unit. Im a single guy and not home all that much, thus there are long periods when I dont use any hot water. Or any water for that matter. I realize the tank I currently have might not kick on, but that pilot light is still burning away all the time. .

Im using propane which is more expensive than natl gas, so I would think the payback would be sooner.

Since Im on a well with an electric pump, the fact that a tankless heater wont work when the power goes out is not much of a concern, since I wont have any water in that case.
So, what do you guys think about it with my circumstances?
--
Larry Weil
Lake Wobegone, NH
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