Boric Acid for ants -where to get

[Doug Miller]

Wrong. It isn't boric acid, and it never was. It's sodium borate.

[Lar]

In article , [e-mail] says... :) > after all about 1/5 of a tablespoon of BA will have a 50% chance of :) > killing a 2.2 lb animal. :) :) well, i guess all the animals i care about are bigger than a kilo :) (assuming your figures above are correct, which i don't, sorry) :) :) Well, assuming you are familiar with a number all chemicals are given which will allow them to be compared to other chemicals.. the LD50 is how many milligrams of a chemical that it takes to kill 50% of test subjects per 1 kilogram. The smaller the number the more toxic. I.E. 1 tablespoon of boric acid (LD50 2660) is more toxic than a tablespoon consisting table salt (LD50 3700). With BA having a LD50 of 2660 it is easy enough to figure out since there are roughly 14175 milligrams in a tablespoon, just under 1/5 (2660 mg) is enough to have a 50% chance of killing a 2.2 lb (or 1 kilogram) creature.

[– Colonel –]

well, let's see, Einstein:

i weigh about 80 kilos.

that means i would need to eat (1/5) x 80 or 16 Tablespoons (which equals one CUP) of boric acid to have a 50% chance of croaking.

ant baits use about 1/2 tsp of BA per cup of bait.

1/2 tsp = 1/6 Tbsp.

that means that to consume 16 Tablespoons of BA, i would need to eat approximately 96 cups or SIX GALLONS of prepared ant bait to have a 50% chance of croaking.

gee, i guess you're right: this IS a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE DANGER!

[– Colonel –]

a tablespoon of boric acid weighs a HALF OUNCE???

i don't know where you get YOUR boric acid (Department of Energy, maybe?) but MY boric acid weighs about FOUR grams/Tbsp., not 14.

are you sure you're not weighing uranium cake?

[Bob G.]

Sure Drug Storesa sell Boric Acid.... if not in stock then they can get in in 24 hours usually..

I am a semi retired Pharmacist...and I do have to agree with you on selling toys food and Liquor...mainly because there is no profit in filling Rx's anymore... PERIOD... Honestly with most Insuirance companies paying less then 5 dollars above the cost of an RX and not paying for the containers, labels etc it is extremely rare to even get a GROSS profit of 15 percent... Toys produce 50 percent profit margins, food & Liquuor slightly less.

Enjoy and sometimes I wish they sold Liquor where I work one evening a week because I need a stiff dribk after dealing with Insuramnce proplems... Ever try to get a new Medicare Rx thru the system? oh make that drink a double...

Bob G.

[Keith]

I *think* oxalic acid is "wood bleach". Rather than neutralizing tannic acid I'd think it bleached it out of the wood.

[mm]

I think Boraxo powerdered hand soap/clearner is a lot more expensive that boric acid, if only because it's sold for people and not for roaches.

I haven't compared prices however..

Before there were dollar stores, I used boric acid for roaches. Worked pretty well, and I didn't bother to put it where it showed. Only behind the stove (which was also the pathway to the rest of the apartment.)

I still needed a can of liquid with a squirter to get into other places, like peeling wall paper. The peeling was small and high and didn't bother me, but the roaches lived in the cracks. Finally bombed them and they all died.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[mm]

What would you mix it from?

Boron and hydrogen?

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[Lar]

In article , [e-mail] says... :) On 2006-01-14 10:20:39 -0500, Lar said: :) :) > In article , [e-mail] says... :) > :) > after all about 1/5 of a tablespoon of BA will have a 50% chance :) > of :) > killing a 2.2 lb animal. :) > :) :) well, i guess all the animals i care about are bigger than a :) > kilo :) (assuming your figures above are correct, which i don't, sorry) :) > :) :) Well, assuming you are familiar with a number all chemicals are :) > given which will allow them to be compared to other chemicals.. the :) > LD50 is how many milligrams of a chemical that it takes to kill 50% of :) > test subjects per 1 kilogram. The smaller the number the more toxic. :) > I.E. 1 tablespoon of boric acid (LD50 2660) is more toxic than a :) > tablespoon consisting table salt (LD50 3700). With BA having a LD50 of :) > 2660 it is easy enough to figure out since there are roughly 14175 :) > milligrams in a tablespoon, just under 1/5 (2660 mg) is enough to have :) > a 50% chance of killing a 2.2 lb (or 1 kilogram) creature. :) :) well, let's see, Einstein: :) :) i weigh about 80 kilos. :) :) that means i would need to eat (1/5) x 80 or 16 Tablespoons (which :) equals one CUP) of boric acid to have a 50% chance of croaking. :) :) ant baits use about 1/2 tsp of BA per cup of bait. :) :) 1/2 tsp = 1/6 Tbsp. :) :) that means that to consume 16 Tablespoons of BA, i would need to eat :) approximately 96 cups or SIX GALLONS of prepared ant bait to have a 50% :) chance of croaking. :) :) gee, i guess you're right: this IS a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE DANGER! :) :) :) O.K. Brainiac..right about what? Where did I type that using boric acid ant bait puts one in terrible danger. Follow the thread you'll see where I asked why go the hassle of making it when there are numerous alternatives that are as safe if not safer than making a mixture ranging from 8%-33% (which most directions seem to be). You responded earlier that I am wrong because you have failed using commercial baits (a trick if it is the "disk" type baits would be to dunk them under warm water for a second to freshen them up) and have had success using home made mixtures, well I make my living using commercial baits/treatments. Being self employed, it would only make since for me to use the most cost efficient and effective products be it bought or I make the mixture myself. I guess with as an elaborate reply you posted you have changed your mind and assume my figures were correct..... In your situation you may not be worried about yourself eating the cup worth of BA, but what about countless others that hear nothing but how safe boric acid is to use around the home...boric acid is harmless... when what I often see in homes I visit is a jar lid of jelly bait on the floor or counter top in easy access of a kitten/dog/child that does weigh quite a bit less than your 175 lbs or so and there is no antidote for borate poisoning.

[Doug Miller]

Actually, you're *both* wrong.

The density of boric acid is 2.486 g/cc. One tablespoon = 14.78 cc. Thus one tablespoon of boric acid has a mass of slighly less than 6 grams.

[Doug Miller]

Try again. One tablespoon is 14.78 cc. Boric acid weighs 2.486 g/cc, or slightly less than 6 grams per tablespoon -- not fourteen.

You're also ignoring the fact that the LD50 varies from species to species, in some cases considerably. LD50 numbers are *never* expressed simply as "LD50" by those who understand what they mean: invariably, they are expressed as "LD50 in mice", "... in rabbits", or in whatever species was tested.

[tbl]

Here, in great central valley of California (Mediteranian climate), I bought a white, plastic bottle, with spout-tip, of "Boric Acid Roach Killer III" (1 pound, powder), branded "PIC Corporation",

Linden, N.J.

I bought this because I could have *sworn* that the "Terro(c) Ant Killer" liquid that I had been buying, listed the active ingredient as boric acid. But now, after buying more Terro, I see the Active Ingredient is listed as:

Sodium Tetraborate Decohydrate (borax) 5.40%

Terro comes from:

Senoret Chemical Company, Inc. St. Louis, MO 63122

I've had good results with the Terro stuff, when I take a few extra steps, to stave off the autumn onslaught of the small (1/8 inch), black, Argentinian (I think) invaders.

Every fall, when the first cold rain comes to the valley, these little guys panic. I think it's because they don't do well in the cold--they slow down as the temp gets down to

50F, and get really stiff and slow when it gets near 40F. A good freeze (rare here), will decimate a colony that hasn't found a protected location, and they don't seem to be adapted to that situation. And cold rain is just too much for them, so they have to find good shelter. So a nice warm, dry house is just the ticket. They can probably make do in the ground, but a house is better.

They are so small, a bread-crum is a big deal to them, and there's usually enough stuff like that on my kitchen floor to create a real harvest. And if I've gotten lazy, and left some dirty dishes lying around, I've provided them with enough bounty to cause the population of their colony to quadruple or more. I think that a lot of food causes the queens to just eat and poop eggs--fast. An unprotected, outside garbage can can cause a colony of thousands to blow up into millions, spinning off new colonies that need someplace to go--like my house.

These little buggers don't do the normal fly and mate thing, they mate right in the colony, and multiple queens are the norm. And they seem to have no predators in this area, except maybe for me. Give them ample food, and they'll reproduce like... well... people! I *suspect* that a sudden, unlimited increase in their food supply can cause a doubling of the colony population in 5 days. An r-rated species, on steroids! That's part of their species survival strategy--they form huge colonies, food permitting, spin off additional queens and colonies, and remain cooperative amongs the colonies. They seem to feast on anything that I eat, be it sweet or fat, milk or honey, bread or cereal. Not so sure about vegetables, tho. Here, they are one of the most invasive, exotic ant species. Even tho it seems impossible for a human to feel any kind of bite from them, they will eliminate every other ant species wherever they are able to make a living. I've read that their communal colonies can stretch accross counties, and that they will invade other ant colonies and even bee-hives, killing or driving off their inhabitants by sheer numbers, sometimes losing *millions* of their own in the process. I have no qualms about trying to exterpate them wherever I can.

One time, they were making tracks across my garage floor, from one corner to the opposite--about twenty feet of trail, about 6 or 8 abreast, on average. I decided to experiment by vacuuming them up with the shop-vac. I sucked up the entire trail, repeating the process about every two (waking) hours for three days. That's when I noticed the odor in the garage. When I popped the lid off the shop-vac, it was about six inches deep in these tiny buggers, and the stench was amazing! Now I wish I had scouped some into a small, graduated container, and counted the contents. Then I could have done some more word to get a real estimate of the number in that shop-vac. If I try to imagine how many would be in a cubic inch, by first imagining how many there would be in the top 1/10th of the cubic inch, I'd guess around

5,000/ci. The inside diameter of the vac canister is about 16.5". So 16.5" x 6" gives a volume of a little over 408 ci. So that's something like 2,042,000 ants. The track accross the garage was still going, not quite as strong as at first. That's the first time that I'm aware of having killed over 2 million of anything.

So here's what I do.

First of all, I try to make sure that I'm not providing them with *any* food. I periodically check the garbage can, and if I see Argentinians getting into it, I spray it down with soapy water, and the same for any trails leading away from it, for as far as I can follow them. I *try* to keep my house clean, but when I see the first storm approaching in the fall, I go on a real cleaning binge. Cereal boxes and the like get moved into the fridge (they can chew thru the cardboard and plastic bags to get the cereal).

When I see the first intruders, I put out the boric acid-based (or borax-based) baits as close to the point of entry as I can get it.

I try to make sure that the *only* edible thing they can find on my property is either a natural food source, or my baits. And if it's cold and pouring rain, they probably aren't going to be getting any natural foods, especially if they've moved their colonies into my house walls or attic.

I'm just starting to experiment with making my own baits, so have no data to offer there. A few years ago, the Terro folks started offering their mix in exquisitely-designed plastic traps. The design is good, because it limits the air-flow past the liquid, and extends the dry-out time. They also have a perfect little ramp for the ants to walk up, to get into the bait-well. That's probably a moot point, as these ants will find anything that tastes good, anywhere you put it, except for the refridgerator. I think the traps cost around $5 US for a box of six traps. Being a tight-wad, I'm going to try rinsing out the used traps and putting my own mix in. Quite a few ants will be so overtaken with the bounty of the bait that they seem to drown in the liquid, and the stuff tends to dry out a bit over time, so it's a real pain to get them cleaned up. I've done this to a couple of traps so far, but they both ended up leaking, so I might just go back to putting the mix on plastic lids, squares of cardboard, or whatever is available. It's also quite a trick to get the liquid *into* the traps.

With factory Terro traps, used against a colony of Argentinians without a good food supply, the results can come fast. I've seen the traps get swarmed with thousands of ants, and within around three hours, I can tell that something is amis--they just aren't moving like they were at first. After twelve hours, the numbers are starting to drop noticably. After 24 hours, there's just a slow trickle, and they're not scouting the rest of the house anymore. At one week, there are still a few dozen ants going for the bait, but no ants in the rest of the house, and the ones going for the bait are not moving so good.

This fall, I managed to almost completely keep them out of my larders, and quickly put the baits out when assault started. Just putting out two of the Terro traps (one at each of the two entry-points) halted the invasion, and I think the colony involved must've gotten hit pretty hard by the poison--it's been a month since I've seen one anywhere but in the traps, or going directly to/from the traps.

Geez, how'd I get started on this, anyway? ;-)

Bottom line for this species: don't let 'em eat anything but poisoned bait!

[AntMasters]

Hate to butt in here but, before I pull my eyes out, Ants are very picky when it comes to food. Different times of the year they require a completely unique food type. During the winter when they are not reproducing then they only require water. Sugar is a treat they will take you up on at all times of the year. The Ants you see running around now are probably just seeking shelter and water. Household ants aren't going to be attracted to yeast; they won't consume it if it was the last food source on earth.( there maybe some exotic ant that eats yeast but I an assuming you don't live in a rain forest) Worker Ants don't digest solid food they take it back to the larvae which are just wormy stomachs. They digest the solids and convert it to liquid to be ingested by the colony. You hear these wise tales about ants eating grits and exploding. Not going to happen, same with yeast. Ants don't wake up and crave toast. Commercial Ant Baits do work you just have to know what the ants are attracted too at the time. Yes, store bought baits and traps are misleading they all seem to state total colony elimination quick and easy. But it is just advertising B.S. Ant Control is a long process and unfortunately most people don't have the patience required to deal with it. They are all looking for a magic bullet. Trust me if there was a magic bullet it would be available to the marketplace. My company produces "commercial bait" but we don't advertise it to be the magic bullet, only a tool in the arsenal. If you want to use home made bait that you feel is superior to commercial brands give them what they seek, water and treat them to sugar. Make a mess enjoy yourself. I prefer fresh squeezed orange juice but it only took me a few times to do it too realize that taking a cap off a carton takes far less time and effort and the taste difference of fresh squeezed to store bought just didn't outweigh the frustration.

But to answer the original post, just use the cheep roach dust boric acid found everywhere. A little goes a long way. First find something the ants will be attracted too then just add as little as a teaspoon to a cup of attractant mix it in well and let em go at it.

Then start looking for moisture issues in your house to find a reason they are there to begin with. Ants are only a symptom to an underlying problem.

[– Colonel –]

Oh yeah? Like what?

The active ingredient in my commercial ant traps is chlorpyrifos (Dursban).

The LD50 toxicity of chlorpyrifos in rats is about 150mg/kg.

You claim the LD50 toxicity of boric acid is 2,660 mg/kg.

If so, that means chlorpyrifos is nearly 18 times as toxic as boric acid.

Yes, the Dursban is only 0.03% concentration in the ant traps.

I honestly don't have the interest or ambition at this point to run all the numbers, but let's just put it this way: I seriously doubt you'd need to eat SIX GALLONS worth of Dursban-laced ant bait to reach a LD50 dosage level, as you would with my homebrew borax/boric acid bait.

More to the point, homemade baits can be modified on the fly to appeal to what the ants seem to want to eat, which means they WORK. Not ONE of the commercial preparations I've tried has EVER worked.

And so far, I've somehow survived the urge to eat 6 gallons of borax bait...my 50-pound dog has yet to eat nearly 2 gallons of it, and my

20-pound daughter has yet to eat nearly 3 quarts of the stuff. Hell, I mix the stuff up by the CUP. About the only creature that could kill (assuming the animal ate the ENTIRE CUP) would be a mouse or a rat. Which would be fine with me.

If you came here for an argument, you'd better go and find Monty Python.

[Stormin Mormon]

Several others have said where to get boric acid. So, I'll change the subject again. I've had excellent results with liquid ant bait from

which is a blue liquid, comes in about two ounce dropper bottle. I'd had a pest control company tell me that carpenter ants come dropping off the trees, nearly impossible to control, and it would take several hundred dollars of spraying and repeat applications. Less than a bottle of liquid ant bait later, and I don't have carpenter ants any more. And I got to keep my several hundred dollars.

Their pantry pest traps work nicely on Indian mealworms, too.

[sallyboo]

Doing all of that sound MORE complicated than rocket science !!!!

[g.a.miller]

try a drugstore. goodluck!

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[g.a.miller]

Rich. I find it at the drug store. Mix with equal parts sugar or cormeal. Keep away from Children and pets Though Best Regards Anthony

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