Bloom Energy on 60 Minutes

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Nonny wrote: ...

...
"...if the concept and pronouncements prove correct, ..." :)
Ayup...there seems to be an echo in here...
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What abt cracking urine to get hydrogen out of ammonia?
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Speaking of cold fusion, there was another 60 Minutes story on that about a year ago. Turns out there are several respected labs around the world that are still working on it. After carefully accounting for energy in vs out, they are still seeing more energy come out than can be accounted for and can reproduce it reliably now. Now that doesn't mean it's actual nuclear fusion, particularly because the normal by-products have not been seen. But something apparently is going on and it looks like the reason they get similar results as the original two professors is that they are doing some things slightly different and the process is very tempermental. It could very well be that something new has been found, but exactly what and if it has any commercial appeal is unknown. But research is actively continuing to try to understand what exactly is going on.
60 Minutes asked one of the repected physical chemistry organizations to recommend a highly qualified chemist to go take a look at what one of these labs was doing. He spent time there and looked at how they were measuring energy. He said initially he was highly skeptical, but after doing due diligence and looking everything over, he agrees that they are in fact getting more energy out than they are putting in and he cant explain it.
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Yup-- made me find the transcript. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain ;contentBody
It was Ebay- they are about $700-800K Saved 100K in 9 months.
But I don't see where it says how many boxes they used. Sheesh- lousy reporting, or purposeful obfuscation? They show 5 on a lawn-- but who knows if that's Ebay's or Google's lawn.
this time I heard the Ebay guy say; "When you average it over seven days a week, 24 hours a day, the Bloom box puts out five times as much power that we can actually use."
So did it make $500-600K worth of power in that 9 months? Or is everyone just pulling numbers out of their wazoo?
Jim [Here's the video link if anyone hasn't seen it yet- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml?tag=currentVideoInfo ;segmentUtilities
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Wasn't that compared to the PV array on the roof? Considering cloudy days and the number of hours of direct sun on non-cloudy days, that's not a surprising number.
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wrote:

if it's outputting so much power(more than what your home uses),it can go back into the grid and you would receive income for the surplus power. Of course,you will be consuming propane/CNG 24/7 to produce that power 24/7.
Oh,and you'll need to match phase and freq with the power company. and you still need to dispose of the carbon it produces. (using hydroCARBON fuels)
TANSTAAFL.
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Jim Yanik
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wrote:

Could well be. It does make the sentence more grammatically correct.
Still boggles my mind that since the first thing any reasonable person does is figure out what the payback would be- it seems like 60 minutes could have hinted at it.
Jim
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Jim Elbrecht wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain ;contentBody
Does the $100K saved include the cost of gas?
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On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:51:51 -0700, "chaniarts"

Of course, you forget the cost of money.

Making the payback 28 years, ignoring interest and maintenance. Not so good, even if it's not a lie.
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The $750K unit was the larger, refrigerator size commercial units being used by FedEx, Ebay, etc. And they are hand-built prototype units for testing, not mass produced units. Let's say the $750K unit is 10X the size of a home unit. So, the price of a similar prototype home unit might be $75K today. When you get to volume production, dropping that $75K to the forecasted $3K isn't really that unreasonable. For example, look at plasma TVs. The first actual production units sold in stores went for $45K. Today you can get a bigger, better one for less than $2K.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: ...

Maybe, one can only hope and wait and see...
If it's really real one (at least I w/ 30+ yrs in commercial power R&D do) wonders why they've not been interested in working w/ those who have inside track w/ the generation folks...
I can't think of any other alternative technology that has become commercially viable (even counting the subsidies in place for "green") that hasn't been that route.
Maybe the guy has something but it's hard (spelled "impossible") to tell at the moment just what that is and how real it might be.
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GM may have spent 1 million dollars on development, and prototypes of the Chevette, which when mass produced, sold for $2500 a copy. That $2000 even included a share of the massive advertising campaign that was used to promote them.
The present Bloom units are handbuilt prototypes.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

So, when they get production units, _THEN_ will be the time to tell what actual operating costs are. Precisely my point that there's no useful data in what has been given to date.
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I was amused at the comparison to NASA. There are some major differences: 1) bloom uses cheap materials 2) bloom doesn't use aerospace quality fuel.
How long before the unit cruds up to the point where it will no longer operate?
Until somebody provides this data, bloom can be safely ignored.
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Life expectancy cant fully be known yet, just tested and guessed. So they have to be cheap, which they wont be. It cant be ignored as thats the way alot of new tech things are.
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On Feb 22, 8:17am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I would take one, 20 big companies in CA are testing them, a few are Walmart, Fedex Google,Ebay . John Donahoe Ceo of Ebay said they have saved 100,000.00 in electric costs in the 9 months 5 boxes have been running. But how long do they last. They are being tested now and working well, but you need 20-30 years of reliable running to make the investment worth while. So they will be sold more and more, but longevity wont be known for a long long time.If priced right with something like a 3 yr payback it would be worth it. We have plenty of Ng to power them and its cheaper then the "commercial" electric rate Ebay pays.
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ransley wrote: ...

Those two don't seem to compute -- who paid the upfront cost for these test units and is that incorporated in the $100k number? I'd think it's more like simply the difference in what they paid in fuel costs over the time period, not total cost???
...

Stationary power generation imo is about the biggest waste of (increasingly limited) NG reserves as can be imagined. It's far more valuable in the big picture as a chemical feedstock, space heating and similar uses where there aren't other as viable alternatives.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

It's a good thing they kept it secret until they had actual deployments of running systems. Otherwise they would have been put down by skeptics and naysayers and no investments would have been made and nothing developed. That is why there is very little innovation any more; skeptics galore.
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That 6" cube doesn't include the power converters to change DC to AC,nor any regulators and safety devices that may be needed. and what happens if the fuel cell has a problem? Or your inverter dies? YOU will be the one paying for repairs.

There are skeptics because there are plenty of scammers out there. Also those who don't disclose the ENTIRE system,what other gear is necessary,what other expenses an operator can expect to have. the FULL costs,the bottom line.
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Jim Yanik wrote:

They either work for the oil companies or are damn stupid.
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