That's what shims are for. Shims are going to be required even if you place the cabinets directly on the subfloor.
You are the only one to mention different depth cabinets.
The appearance of the finished product is a reflection of the installers' workmanship -- not weather the cabinets were installed on the subfloor or not.
Oops, wrong "whether."
in a kitchen putting the cabinets on the sub floor, can causea big hassle. the dishwasher will be sitting in a trough and be very hard to remove to service.
do the job right.
tile floor first, then install cabinents.
do everything in neutral type colors,
if you dont remodel first, you are costing yourself big bucks.
90% of buyers want a move in ready home, later when they have settled in they will then redo what they want.my 90+ age neighbor died, her family refused to do anything. the home sat vacant for many months it finally sold for about 30% off of similiar homes did.
the new owner is glad he enjoys home repair, but 90% dont!
In the past 18 months I renovated two bathrooms. Both have different size vanities than were there previously. I took out the original sheet goods and both sit on the new ceramic tile on the floor.
If cabinets have the same footprint, then changing out the cabinets is no big deal.
Try that with saltillo tile and you will grimace each time you look at it! You'll be *caulking* around the base to hide the imperfections in the tile's thickness, depth of grout lines, etc. (toe kick reveal just accentuates these imperfections)
We talked to several tile pros when we ordered our tile -- as we were swapping out bathroom and kitchen cabinetry at the same time: "What order should we install?"
The answer boiled down to "EASIER to tile first" (less cutting and fitting) but "much better LOOKING to tile after the cabinetry" -- the floor and cabinetry look to belong together (esp if you tile on the diagonal).
Floor plans tend not to change (stove can't arbitrarily be moved in most kitchens; nor the refrigerator, sink, commode, etc.). We opted to move the kitchen peninsula a foot further into the family room and erect a pony wall behind it -- most folks don't have that luxury (i.e., the room's dimensions remain the same before and after replacing a floor, cabinetry, appliances, etc.)
Our tile pattern was planned so the tiles *fit* with the cabinets instead of just letting the cabinetry and tile "fall where they may". At $15K, I doubt folks will be eager to replace the cabinets in *my* lifetime! And, pulling up the floor is even more unlikely (removing all that tile).
Wood, vinyl/linoleum and BATHROOM (ceramic) tile are smooth, level surfaces. There is good dimensional repeatability (unless you've a truly "rustic" wood floor/trip hazzard)
Our ceramic tile have a very deliberate texture to their surface and beveled/rounded edges. I.e., there's a noticeable distance between the top of the highest point in the texture (which is the LOWEST point for the cabinetry to rest on the tile surface) and the lowest point in a grout line. Put a (VERY LONG!) straight edge across that surface and all you see are these highs and lows accentuated against that straight line.
[Said another way, you couldn't roll a steel ball STRAIGHT across a tile, let alone a SPAN of tiles!]With saltillo tile, the differences are even more pronounced (the tiles themselves aren't very well dimensionally controlled).
And, all that assumes the tile is laid with the same amount of adhesive beneath on a perfectly flat floor. Any imperfections translate through the (rigid) tile thickness to appear as high and low spots.
[Yeah, you can shim so the cabinets don't "rock", but the toe kick reveal will still highlight the "non-flatness" of the floor -- just like laying a square/straightedge across the surface! Note your toe kick is much wider than any single cabinet so you are now dealing with highs and lows over a 6, 8, 10, 12 ft span!]Fitting the tile gives the same sort of finished appearance. The tile looks like it was mated to the cabinetry instead of the cabinetry appearing as an afterthought. E.g., we will lay diagonal with smaller trim tiles "outlining" the border of the cabinetry (and walls) with the "field" of tile. A lot more work (cutting) but in the homes we've examined with this approach, it really looks a lot classier.
[So, the cabinetry just plays the role of other tile: a grout line separates the cabinetry FROM the tile]You also have to consider what the thickness of the tile does to the height of your counter wrt "upper" cabinets (as uppers tend to have limits on where their tops can be located). Ceiling heights don't magically increase just because you've lost some height to "floor thickness".
Likewise, counter heights have to consider under-the-counter appliances (e.g., dishwasher, compactor, slide-ins, etc.). We've had to carefully plan to ensure we could get these things in and out after the counters are in place (lifting countertops to do so is not an option!).
[This actually cased some unexpected problems with the WC's as they were designed to fit *under* certain other things.]
Having read thru all the replies that seems to be more or less the consensus and seems like a reasonable way to go.
I our market it seems virtually everything that sells is "move in ready". My house has to have the paint done and I feel redoing the shower is a must, it' just not "nice enough" for the market plus the whole bathroom is "brass" which apparently is way out of style now. In fact, most of the light fixtures are brass and I figure they will need to be replaced with some kind of bronze/brushed nickel or similar to fit the market. And the flooring is all 25 years old and just plain out of date and style. Then there are the counter tops... plain old laminate. Way out of style now so if I do that the cabinets also need to be replaced.
If you are not installing the cabinets on the tile I sure hope you are shimming the floor to tile level (adding another 3/8" or 1/2" plywood) under the cabinets, particularly if a range, dishwasher, or refrigerator are being installed within that cabinet area. I know from experience getting a dishwasher out of a cabinet that has had tile installed after the fact is one royal pain!!!! You need to lift the dishwasher to get it out and you can't because the cabinet doesn't have enough clearance to lift it high enough to get over the tile (this was a heavy guage floor tile on a mortar bed - over 1/2 inch higher than the subfloor)
As much a reflection on the tile installer as the cabinet installer - and MANY cabinets today have adjustable levelling "feet" to level the cabinet - and the "kickboard" or "plinth" gets coped to fit the floor if necessary - or simply ripped to fit, with the small gap at the bottom caulked.
It's been my experience tha MOST kitchen renovations involve at least a minor change in cabinet "footprint". Most of those that do not involve refacing cabinets, not replacing.
A GOOD tile installer will install the tile level and smooth on the top surface. What the adhesive.thinset thickness below the tile is isn't critical to the finish.
I'm not so sure. I came in late to the thread so I may have missed something though.
Interior paint should be last in my experience to avoid dinging it up when doing the other work. The prep work can be done while you're doing the other work.
As others have said though, check with local realtors to see if you will get your investment back. Of course, if the house sells quicker, and you "lose" a couple of thousand, then you may be better off.
Charles
Floors are rarely level, even in brand new construction.
I was extremely careful about framing everything level and square when we built our house. But by the time we got to the cabinets, the lumber had shrunk, things settle, etc. so the kitchen floor was no longer level. Older homes are usually much worse.
As mentioned above, shimming is almost always necessary to get the cabinets level, regardless of what surface you mount them on.
Floors and walls are rarely flat. There are usually bows, dips, ripples, or textures you have to deal with.
You install the cabinets, shimming to get them all level and plumb. Then you install the toekick board to cover the bottom of the cabinets. It's a fairly simple matter to scribe the bottom of the board to match any unevenness in the floor.
In my case, I beveled the backside of the toekick board at a 45 degree angle. That left a nice sharp edge on the front of the toekick board that easily conforms to minor imperfections with a bit of downward pressure.
If the flooring has larger bumps and gaps, you would just scribe the board to match.
Unless your floor is REALLY out of level, you're not going to notice a
1/2 inch to 1 inch difference in the slopes, especially back under the toe kick area.Most people are likely to replace cabinets and/or appliances before they would replace a tile floor. If the cabinets are on top of the tile, that's easy to do. If the tile was an afterthought, you'll have a lot of gaps to deal with.
Also, unless you build custom cabinets, most stock cabinets are designed to provide a 36" counter height from the top of the flooring. If you install tile AFTER installing the cabinets, your counter top will end up lower in relation to the floor. Especially if you add backer board and thick tiles.
Most tile comes in 2", 6", or 12" squares/rectangles/etc.. Cabinets often vary in dimension, but even modular cabinets will vary a bit depending on the shimming needed along uneven walls.
There's no guarantee the tile and cabinets will line up visually regardless of which comes first.
Yes, you could spend the time to line up the grout lines with existing cabinets, but you could just as easily plan out the tile layout before the cabinets go in. It's just a matter of planning.
If you're trying to plan ahead, it would be wiser to have the front edge of the cabinet land in the middle of a tile instead of trying to line it up on a grout line. Your eye won't notice a 1/2 to 1 inch difference in the middle of the tile. But if your cabinets line up with a grout line, even a 1/4 inch misalignment will stand out. The same reason you try to plan for half tiles along walls, so you don't end up with little narrow tiles that would highlight imperfections.
Anthony Watson
House up the street was on the market for over a year and it was painted with new carpet, pretty much fixed up to what I would consider fine move in condition. Didn't sell, didn't sell. Finally sold for about 50K less then the original asking price to a flipper. He gutted it, took out walls to create a very large "great room" setup, took out fireplace, filled in sunken living room, rearranged the bathroom, including moving the toilet so there was more room for a bigger shower, completely redid and rearranged the kitchen with all new everything. Then sold it for $150K more then he paid. I forget the exact prices but at the time I calculated that he made at least $75K for his three months worth of trouble. Houses around here just don't sell "as-is" except for rock bottom prices to flippers.
Hi Anthony,
[ER... yada yada yada... check mail!]
I am not sure how the dual agent works but know what it is. When I wanted to buy a house that was listed in the paper I went to the agency and asked about it. Got one agent that was not the listing agent, She then had to act as both buying and selling. Not sure if that is a way for them to get more money out of them or not.
I could see that if I had went to another agency and just asked them to find me a house and they found one for sell by another agency.
Did he have a permit for removing the walls? And an engineering report? Was it a load bearing wall, and if so was it properly supported? This is what happens in so many flips. The walls are removed to give "open concept" and the proper support restructuring is not done.. Then to top it all off, the electrical changes are not done properly, and there is no inspection and no permits - 6 months later the plaster/drywall is cracked because the structure is sagging - and the new owner has no recourse.
I would NEVER buy a flipped house without very extensive documentation of what was done. Way too many pitfalls.
I've looked at a few around here where there were NOT any extensive renovations, like moving walls - and they were scary enough!!!
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...
Yup, they ain't all Flip or Flop material.
Some of the renovations I have seen done by owners are scary and they aren't even flipping them.
It's even scarier since I've been watching Holmes makes it right. Houses 5 to 10 years old disaster areas because there is no knowledge or craftsmanship. Supposedly "good builders" The low bid gets the job.
There are a few builders in this area that I wouldn;t touch their BEST house with a 10 foot pole.
One contractor who was known for building top quality custom homes was not selling many houses back in th '80s, when builders started building gussied up chicken coops and calling them houses. Old Bill said "if they want junk, i'll build 'em junk" and he started building low-buck houses - pretty well put the worst of the cheap contractors out of business. And his were better houses.( not saying a whole lot, mind you!!)
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