Basic advice for an oven bake element house fire (GE JBP24B0B4WH)

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PanHandler wrote: ...

And, I should have noted what Donna thought was "nothing" inside is actually that the element is embedded in the insulator wrapped around the element which is likely structural tubing w/ a hollow insulator iinstead of being a straight wire in a solid rod. IOW, what she thought was a flaw is the way the element is manufactured. This, of course, provides much better heat transfer and faster response owing to less thermal inertia contained in the element (as opposed to the bulky "eyes" that are more thermally massive by design).
--
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:25:54 -0500, dpb wrote:

Hi dpb,
That is VERY interesting! I am going to take the element apart once the replacement part arrives and the comparison checks out.
As always, I'll try to document everything thoroughly because I was trained to give as much as I get back in return.
At this point, the oven is dried out (mostly) and just waiting for the new element to arrive from UPS. The only problem left is that the door glass has ABC powder INSIDE of it ...... I have to figure out how that got in there in order to get rid of it.
Do you thing the excess nitrogen gas given off when that door glass heats up the first time will cause any problem?
Thanks, Donna
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:06:54 -0500, dpb wrote:

Hi dpb,
I just uploaded a photo for you showing you are correct. This little tiny two inch heater element is totally separate from the rest of the oven.
It appears to be working off of 120 volts because two small white wires attach to it while the two big (red & black) 220v wires attach to the upper GE oven heating element.
Notice the 220v neutral wire is nowhere to be found! http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279115 /
It seems that every time I take something apart to figure out how it works, I end up with more questions!
Sorry but I have to ask WHERE did the neutral for the 3-pronged 220volt circuit get hooked up?
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Donna Ohl wrote: ...

It's not a heater, it's the control sensor for the self-cleaning cycle as I indicated.

Those are control logic wires -- the sensor acts just like a switch. It isn't powered, it simply controls power.

Of course not, 240V loads are connected across one leg to the other; otherwise there wouldn't be 240V, only 120V from one or the other hot leg to the neutral.
The neutral is connected to the wiring chassis at the location where the pigtail is connected; it's used for the various other portions of the oven that do operate off 120V like the lights, clock, etc., etc., ...
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:40:15 -0500, dpb wrote:

Hi dpb,
Oh my! Are you saying the neutral is connected to the oven chassis?!
If so, then the neutral is not grounded at the electrical box but at some point perhaps hundreds of yards away from the house. That means, under off-balance conditions, the neutral can have a voltage pressure to ground, which means the oven chassis can, essentially, be electrically hot under "normal" conditions.
Can that possibly be right that the chassis is connected to the neutral which carries current?
Donna
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Donna Ohl wrote:

Jeez, chill, lady. Read what I wrote again.
>> The neutral is connected to the _wiring_ chassis ...
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On a modern oven with a 4-wire cord set, neutral and ground are separate. The oven frame is connected to ground, while neutral is connected only to the 120 V loads inside the oven (clock, lights, 120 V outlet if any).
Older ovens with a 3-wire connection use neutral as ground. This does pose some shock risk if the neutral ever becomes disconnected.

No, neutral and ground ought to be connected to each other (and to a ground rod) at your house electrical panel, not hundreds of yards away.

Under some conditions (old installation), yes. But since most of the loads in an oven are 240 V, there isn't much connected to neutral. And since the neutral for the stove isn't shared with any other circuit in the house, and neutral is connected to ground back at the panel, there should be very very little voltage on the stove neutral - unless it gets disconnected accidentally.
    Dave
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:06:54 -0500, dpb wrote:

Is that third copper tube a "sensor" or a short "heater element" for the self-cleaning GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 oven?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279131 /
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I would contact GE regarding this. There may be a history of problems with this oven or a recall. Look in your yellow pages or online for appliance parts. The oven is not that old so I would think that parts are still available. Have you contacted your homeowners insurance company? The oven may be covered.
Without taking the oven apart it is difficult to assess what other parts may have been damaged from the fire. It is possible that the wiring for the stove top burners got damaged. I vote for a new stove and a different model as well.
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Listen ditszy,
Save yourself some money and replace the entire stove. You're worrying your pretty little head over a very common occurrance. Most broil oven elements only last three to five years so you're lucky you got as much as you did out of the one you have. When you turned off the heat, in your blonde moment (probably all the time) you turned it back on or hit the wrong dial because the arcing would have stopped then and there.
And, the fire extinguisher didn't put out the arcing because it was still arcing and if was the top element (broil you ditz, not bake). Here you are spraying powder on an upside down fire. Think about it. The powder smothers the fire only if it lands on the fire. You would have to turn the entire oven upside down for the fire extinguisher to work, you idiot.
As for the part numbers, your oven is a GE Spectra white. Take the WH off the part number BTW, it stands for white. That oven has to be at least five to ten years old so fat chance you'll ever find the part at GE for that. If you do find it, expect to pay upwards of $70 for it (PN WB44T10009 for the top broil and PN WB44T100010 for the bottom bake element).
What happened is you were dumb enough to have a splat of grease on the element, which over time weakened the steel casing which over time melted which over time exposed the inner resistive wire which over time moved enough to get close to the ungrounded case of the oven which arced frightfully (for you) which then cracked when you splashed water or fire extinguisher on it which opened the circuit which killed the arcing.
I have no idea what the "whoosh" sound was ..... probably the air leaving your head as you concentrated on ruining your oven.
You can replace the element for a few hundred bucks with a service call, or, if you do it yourself, you will almost certainly drop the wires in the back as you unscrew them off the element so that you'll have to pay a technician a few hundred bucks to take the oven apart to get to the wires you dropped.
Anyway, if you like, call GE and they'll confirm everything I said (I used to work for GE by the way). GE tech support 800-626-2005 GE customer service 800-432-2737 GE oven appliances 800-386-1215 GE appliance parts 800-626-2002 GE troubleshooting 800-626-2000 GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 upper broil element P/N: WB44T10009 GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 lower bake element P/N: WB44T10010 Respectfully yours
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Upper element from:
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartIDw0548&PPStack=1
$53.70
Lower element:
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartIDw0549&PPStack=1
$49.50
Both in stock for immediate delivery.

Call the Repair Clinic guy at 800-269-2609 instead. He's a lot more friendly.
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:32:56 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@LousyISP.gov wrote:

Hi NoSpam,
Actually, I called the numbers that Crumb Bum gave us and GE, after about a half hour of bouncing around, wrote up a work ticket for me and kindly shipped the element at an 80% discount and they even dropped the shipping.
The only thing I had to pay full on was the tax (which for California is over 8%).
The new genuine GE element should arrive soon from UPS at a total cost of about $38 off my credit card.
So, even though Crumb Bum must have been under the weather that day, he helped me get the parts for a great price (I think).
BTW, the GE parts representative kept touting "genuine GE" but I wonder if all the parts are the same. I'll bet they are.
Anyone know which brand of oven parts is any better or worse than the others?
Donna
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GE has never been the same since Ronny quit advertising for them.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in wrote:

Once you posted this:

the worth of anything that followed was zip.
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On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:20:29 -0500, Red Green wrote:

Hi Red Green,
He's entitled to his opinion. Everyone is. At least he also provided additional help in his post. The guys who just complain and don't provide ANY discernable value are the ones who are the hardest to respond to.
I mean, there should be value in every post ..... but it's hard to find that in some people's responses.
Anyway, the good news is the GE Spectra oven is clean after the garden hosing, it's mostly dried out, and one of the last problems I'm researching is what happens when ABC powder stuck inside the oven glass heats up emitting copius nitrogen gasses.
Thanks, Donna
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On Oct 8, 3:19pm, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Um, it's ditzy... No s. But I wouldn't expect decent grammar or typing skills from someone with enough gall to respond "You're worrying your pretty little head over a very common occurrance(sp)." Is your wife barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Probably not. I wouldn't expect a woman to fall for a sad sap with a protruding neanderthalic forehead and a job with his name on his shirt, but people amaze me. Next time you feel kind enough to respond to someone's question, keep your can of crap to yourself and try to help without being a complete asshole, you foreskin wrinkle.
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if you dont replace the unit that caught on fire, when iot happens again insurance may not cover it. replace it..
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

Bullpuckey...
If all that happened is the broil element failed (they all will eventually), there's no need for anything other than replacing it.
It's about a 15-minute job if you've never done one before.
--
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On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:04:04 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:

Hi Smitty Two,
I'm sorry if I offended you by posting about a dozen annotated pictures so that people could help me. And, I'm sorry that asking a handful of questions about an oven repair offends you in this home-repair newsgroup.
I'm not sure why you bothered to respond, since you offered no help, but, you deserve the courtesy of a response and I just want to let you know I read what you posted about me and you are entitled to your opinion - and I appreciate your taking the time to state it publically.
Thank you, Donna
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My dear Donna,
Since you were nice to me, I'll be concomitantly nice to you in return.
While you know nothing about oven repair, I must admire your tenacity and desire. Most of the responses are from technicians like Smitty who simply mindlessly replace the part and move on with their lives, never taking the time or mental effort to dig down into they who-what-where- when-or-why. Their fix-it-and-be-done-with-it approach takes about fifteen minutes to complete so they can not comprehend why you are taking longer than they would for something so simple as replacing a heater element.
A LOT of repairs (probably 95% of all repairs) are done this replace- parts-one-by-one-until-the-system-works-again method so their approach has merit.
You can't count the number of times I've overheard the conversation "My cooling system is overheating. What shall I do?" with the fifteen- minute response being "just replace the thermostat". Don't think. Just replace. Ask a question or two like "where is it" and "what is the part number" but nothing more than that. Certainly don't take apart any failed item to understand why it failed. Why does it matter. It failed. You replaced it. What more is there to know. That is the Smitty mentality. There is nothing wrong with this move-on-with-your- life mentality. You just don't have it.
Only a few repairs (probably less than 5%) are done using a systematic and forensic approach which you seem to lean toward.
The systematic approach takes far longer than fifteen minutes and requires adequate documentation of the particulars. Many picayune questions need to be asked and answered. Far more than you've asked so far. Almost always, the errant part needs to be destroyed and the pieces analyzed to determine the true sequence of events and ultimate cause of the failure, which will suggest the appropriate solution. Most advances in knowledge are by this approach.
Most work is done by the fifteen-minute approach. Most advances are done by the systematic approach. You chose. You lose.This is not the message board for the systematic approach. We don't know how it works. And we don't care. We fix it. We get paid. We move on. You should too.
If you insist on the systemic approach, then you will find very few people here who have the patience to help you. Most don't want to admit they have no clue as all they do is remove two bolts and they're done. They can't comprehend why you still have questions after removing those two bolts.
My advice to you is for you to put the two bolts back in, plug the oven in, and if it works, you'll know as much as 95% of the people who responded to your initial question. If you insist on trying to figure out what happened, I suggest you post a closeup photograph of the element at the point of failure. I suspect you'll find the typical spiral pattern of the failed element burning through the metal casing and arcing to the oven itself until the power failed.
If you wish to better understand how the heater element works, I suggest as others have done, that you hack saw through both the failed and pristing section where you'll see the spiral pattern of the element embedded in the sintered ceramic surrounded by high temperature steel which will have failed at the point of arcing, in a barber-shop spiral down your element.
I no longer think you're a ditz. You're just different, in a sickly sweet nice kind of way!
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