I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement.
It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher.
It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain.
Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring.
I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter.
1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more?
2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop?
3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink? (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference).
4. Anything else I should watch out for?
Thanks for your input.
On 10/4/2015 10:33 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Will this *be* greywater?
Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation?
Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up).
Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to
a kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does
See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep area.
As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are not
allowed in a kitchen.
First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there
to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies
to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a
portable electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on
a wheel and firing? etc.
Kitchen requirement doesn't care about counter length.
One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of
something *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e.,
now your pump is inoperative. What are the consequences?
Would you want a battery backed pump?
No outlets with 12" of water. Any outlets within 6' of sink
must be GFCI. Outlet to service any portion of counter
<shrug> Just off top of my head. Code book is your friend!
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:18:39 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
No garbage disposal unit planned. And I'm not preparing food, but possible some dope might rinse their plate in this sink on Thanksgiving instead of bringing it upstairs. More conservative answer is yes, it's greywater. Does that change approach?
Well, probably not. I will have no stove or cooktop in the basement. I would use it just to wash something instead of hauling it upstairs to the kitchen.
True. It'll have a counter with cabinets beneath and maybe above too.
No... I've no exhaust fan either. I, personally, would not be preparing food in the basement.
My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC?
Thanks for all other comments!
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-)
I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both
pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water
and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't
Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated
circuit? Just curious.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
It is a totally different function. The sump pump runs whenever water
starts building up in the sump, from rain or ground water. You may not
be there to be sure it is running.
The sink pump only runs when you are there running water and it would
be pretty apparent that it was not leaving the sink.
Actually I am curious where the requirement that a sump pump be on an
individual circuit is.
I have never seen it. I just scanned the 2014 and I didn't see it and
I know it wasn't in the 08 and I don't see it in the 11 analysis of
We won't be on the 14 here for 3 years or so. We just adopted the 11.
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you
leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to
overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is
No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by
another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods.
The "sump" is below the drain level, and can overflow before the
sink backs up - at least on many laundry pumps I've seen. They have a
small "tank" that fills to a particular level before the ejector pump
starts. If the pump doesn't start the tank fills to the top - and SOME
will leak when this happens - making a mess.
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:56:30 -0400,
Still, he will likely notice that it's not making any noise, and he'll
be there to see the water on the floor before it floods the whole
basement. Before he leaves he'll turn off the water and only a little
more will come out.
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
The only way a sump pump does not to need to be on a GFCI is if it is
in finished space or hard wired. I suppose you could use a 240v sump
Unfinished basements, utility rooms etc require GFCI everywhere (on 15
and 20a 120v receptacles). The exception for sump pumps went away a
long time ago.
why the fixation on doing the absoute least?
log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/
i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future.
done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier.
plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out
If you really want to keep your options open, use smurf tube. Then you
can pull in different wire and if you run extra smurf you have the
opportunity to install all sorts of stuff.
I ran it in my new addition
All of the boxes terminate in a central location so I can change what
any switch controls, among other things. I have already changed 2.
I can also add wires if I need them since it is all 3/4" tube.
The wire cost is probably twice what Romex would be but that is pretty
insignificant in the total cost of the project.
Ok, so sounds like you all are saying:
1. all outlets on counter of wet bar and within 6ft of sink need to be GFCI
2. This circuit for these outlets can be shared, no requirement for dedicat
ed 20amp line just to counter outlets (as would be the case if it were a ki
tchen). But if I do decide to share, it's WISE to include sufficient capac
ity for a nearby fridge and/or blender or toaster oven or microwave at this
3. Dedicated circuit for under-sink pump, with GFCI outlet.
Any other input or comments?
On 10/5/2015 6:18 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
My question pertained to whether or not you were going to route it into
the sanitary sewer. "Greywater" can usually be disposed of on your
property (e.g., irrigation). But, it must *truly* be greywater (in
the code's definition of same)
My question was semi rhetorical. If you're not preparing food,
then it's less likely "like a kitchen". I.e., it could be more
like a *bathroom* or a "laundry room" (see my point?). So,
the invariant issues are GFCI's and proximity to water.
OK, so it's not used *like* a kitchen. But, how do you *want* to use
it (forget the Code issues)? E.g., if you want to have a wet saw
draining into the sink, you probably want power for the wet saw nearby
(silly example). If you want to make popcorn, you'll want to be
able to set the popcorn popper on the counter (and have power
available). The size of your counter will determine how much stuff
you can set on it and where (in relation to the sink). Having just
12" on either side of the sink will pretty much screw you wrt outlets
(which need to be 12" from water).
Dunno. My sister had a similar arrangement. Basement was below the sewer
line. Yet, they installed a toilet, shower, etc. Let everything drain
downward -- then a sump pushed it back up overhead. Never a danger of the
sump filling from rain/runoff as they were on the high side of a hill.
But, if the water was running in shower, toilet, sink, etc. the pump had to
be reliable -- no way to "inhibit" the flow of water *into* the sink if
the pump failed!
[BTW, a dedicated circuit means exactly that! I.e., you can't even use a
duplex *receptacle* on the load end!]
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