Bad voltage spikes

[clare]

A dual conversion UPS. Not cheap, but 100% effective against that type of damage.

[clare]

Same here in Waterloo Ontario - at least the part I live in.

[westom]

A 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in every faci lity that cannot have damage. IEEE even puts a number to the protection. It does about 99.5% of the protection. Then get maybe an additional 0.2% protection using 'point of connection' protectors. IEEE papers even report damage created when 'point of connection' protectors are used without a 'w hole house' protector.

Some facilities that may even suffer about 100 surges per storm always us e the 'whole house' solution. In some cases, an employee could even be fir ed for using the adjacent 'point of connection' protector. Due to their hi gher requirements for reliablity.

Even professional organization including the IEEE, NIST, and ARRL recomme nd the 'whole house' solution. Because no protector does protection. Eith er the protector connects to what does protection - earth ground. Or the p rotector is for other transients that typically are not destructive; made i rrelevant by protection that routinely exists inside all appliances (with o r without internal MOVs).

The utility 'whole house' protector is so simple that the girl who reads the meter may often install it. But the same solution from many other (and more responsible companies including GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hamme r, Ditek, ABB, Syscom, Square D, etc) can be installed for less money.

Even the 'point of connection' protection needs protection only possible by earthing a 'whole house' protector.

[jeff_wisnia]

My ISP is Comcast, and I get a huge amount of storage space free with our account.

I'm quite religious about backing up the computerized payroll data files from our family business by FTPing them to Comcast immediately after anything is done which changes them. I also back up stuff like my family tree efforts and family photo albums there too.

Jeff

[The Daring Dufas]

I remember reading about some research done by labs working for The DOD where they had to come up with a way to protect the power systems and connected electronic equipment from the EMP created by a nuclear weapon when it explodes. They were testing surge protection installed in layers. It would start where power entered the facility and was added to inside electrical panels all the outlets and in/on the individual pieces of electronic equipment. They found what they did was the best way to protect electronic equipment from any extreme events affecting the electrical power service. ^_^

TDD

[gregz]

When I moved in, the power company informed me I had a protector, and wanted to know if I wanted to keep it. Something like $6-7 month. I don't think anyone came to remove it, and I don't think I had one to begin with. scam ?

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

You should call your power company and ask them what they'll cover in the way of damage if you lease a meter mounted surge arrester from them. $7.00 per month sounds like cheep insurance to me. ^_^

TDD

[trader4]

cility that cannot have damage.

Nonsense. Look at a phone facility for example. Not only is there protection on the incoming lines, there is also protection on the linecard boards in the system that the lines go to too. Just like IEEE recommends, they use a tiered protection strategy. In the past, I even provided you with references to major component manufacturers that provide such surge protection, but of course you ignore it. Here are some again:

"A ?primary protection? located on the Main Distribution Frame (MDF) el iminates coarsely the high energy environmental disturbances (lightning transients and AC power mains disturb ances) n A ?secondary protection? located on the line card includes a primary protection level (first stage) and a residual protection (second stage) which eliminates finely the remaining tr ansients that have not been totally suppressed by the first stage."

Note that the above clearly is a TIERED strategy, consistent with the IEEE recommendations.

IEEE even puts a number to the protection. It does about 99.5% of the pr otection. Then get maybe an additional 0.2% protection using 'point of con nection' protectors.

Please provide us with a link that shows those numbers.

IEEE papers even report damage created when 'point of connection' protecto rs are used without a 'whole house' protector.

use the 'whole house' solution. In some cases, an employee could even be f ired for using the adjacent 'point of connection' protector. Due to their higher requirements for reliablity.

mend the 'whole house' solution.

Yes and right in the IEEE white paper, part of that whole house strategy is to use a whole house protector at the panel AND point-of-use, ie plug-in protectors at appliances, like TV, PC, etc.

Because no protector does protection. Either the protector connects to wh at does protection - earth ground. Or the protector is for other transient s that typically are not destructive; made irrelevant by protection that ro utinely exists inside all appliances (with or without internal MOVs).

Still waiting all these years for an answer. If MOVs inside an appliance are effective with out a direct connection to ground, then how is it that MOVs located in an adjacent surge protector are useless, because they have no earth ground?

And factor in that the MOVs in a $25 surge protector are an order of magnitude larger than those in an appliance. And which device would you rather have much of the surge going through? The ones in the $25 surge protector or the ones in the $2000 TV?

s the meter may often install it.

Demeaning comment noted. How would a simple girl know if the earth ground is proper and adequate?

[westom]

Protection on incoming lines is the 'whole house' solution. Protection i n a line card is equivalent to protection found inside all household applia nces. All appliances (and line cards) already contain protection that woul d otherwise be on its adjacent power wire. All appliances (and line cards) have best protection on lines entering the facility - properly earthed 'wh ole house' protection.

Tiered protection strategy exists when a consumer earths a 'whole house' protector and nothing more. An earthed 'whole house' protector is his "sec ondary" protection. Each layer of protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector. A homeowner's "primary" protection layer is elsewher e. Consumers should also inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A pict ure demonstrates that most important component:

Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. Always. An eff ective protector makes a connection to what does protection. The only solu tion always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Including tel co switching centers, radio and TV broadcast stations, and even munitions d umps. The solution that rarely exists in homes because so many foolishly t hink that power strip protects from the other and typically destructive sur ge. It doesn?t.

I never said MOVs adjacent to appliances are useless. They do a maybe 0.

2% additional protection. Many manufactures stopped putting MOVs inside ap pliances. Since other internal protection is often hardier. And since int ernal MOVs do little to protect from the other and typically destructive su rge.

All appliances (and line cards) by design already have superior protectio n. The informed homeowner is concerned with another and typically destruct ive transient. A transient that can overwhelm existing protection. That t ransient can only be diverted by properly earthed protectors. A 'whole hou se' solution is even necessary to protect 'point of connection' protectors ... that otherwise only protect from something that is typically not destru ctive.

So yes, the adjacent protector does maybe an additional 0.2% protection. And the 'whole house' protector must still exist. Spend about $1 per prot ected appliance for about 99.5% protection - one properly earthed 'whole ho use' protector to protect from all type of surges. Then spend $25 or $80 p er appliance to protect mostly from a type of surge that typically causes n o damage. Yes, install a tiered solution. But that is done with protectio n already inside each appliance, by what is required (and typically missing ) in most homes (a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), and the alrea dy existing 'primary' protection layer.

Protectors without the short connection to earth do not and do not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge. That other surge is typic ally made irrelevant by what already exists even in dimmer switches, CFL li ght bulbs, computers, clocks, the furnace and air conditioner, and even smo ke detectors.

Informed consumers are better advised to direct money into what is more im portant - better earthing. And either a wire connection or a 'whole house' protector connection to what actually does the protection - earth ground.

Page 42 figure 8: The adjacent protector is too far from earth ground an d too close to appliances. So it earths a surge 8000 volts destructively t hrough any nearby appliance. We have seen this often (in part because we d id this stuff). Distance between a protector and electronics INCREASES pro tection. Distance from protector to earth ground is a most critical parame ter for effective protection ... from the other and typically destructive s urge. Even power strip protectors need protection only possible by earthin g one 'whole house' protector.

[The Daring Dufas]

When I was doing a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB, our rural customers were having problems with power surges blowing out capacitors and other parts of of their HVAC systems. We started installing hard wired surge protection on their systems and it eliminated those type failures. ^_^

TDD

[Tomsic]

Protection on incoming lines is the 'whole house' solution. Protection in a line card is equivalent to protection found inside all household appliances. All appliances (and line cards) already contain protection that would otherwise be on its adjacent power wire. All appliances (and line cards) have best protection on lines entering the facility - properly earthed 'whole house' protection.

Tiered protection strategy exists when a consumer earths a 'whole house' protector and nothing more. An earthed 'whole house' protector is his "secondary" protection. Each layer of protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector. A homeowner's "primary" protection layer is elsewhere. Consumers should also inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates that most important component:

Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. Always. An effective protector makes a connection to what does protection. The only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Including telco switching centers, radio and TV broadcast stations, and even munitions dumps. The solution that rarely exists in homes because so many foolishly think that power strip protects from the other and typically destructive surge. It doesn't.

I never said MOVs adjacent to appliances are useless. They do a maybe

0.2% additional protection. Many manufactures stopped putting MOVs inside appliances. Since other internal protection is often hardier. And since internal MOVs do little to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.

All appliances (and line cards) by design already have superior protection. The informed homeowner is concerned with another and typically destructive transient. A transient that can overwhelm existing protection. That transient can only be diverted by properly earthed protectors. A 'whole house' solution is even necessary to protect 'point of connection' protectors ... that otherwise only protect from something that is typically not destructive.

So yes, the adjacent protector does maybe an additional 0.2% protection. And the 'whole house' protector must still exist. Spend about $1 per protected appliance for about 99.5% protection - one properly earthed 'whole house' protector to protect from all type of surges. Then spend $25 or $80 per appliance to protect mostly from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Yes, install a tiered solution. But that is done with protection already inside each appliance, by what is required (and typically missing) in most homes (a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), and the already existing 'primary' protection layer.

Protectors without the short connection to earth do not and do not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge. That other surge is typically made irrelevant by what already exists even in dimmer switches, CFL light bulbs, computers, clocks, the furnace and air conditioner, and even smoke detectors.

Informed consumers are better advised to direct money into what is more important - better earthing. And either a wire connection or a 'whole house' protector connection to what actually does the protection - earth ground.

Page 42 figure 8: The adjacent protector is too far from earth ground and too close to appliances. So it earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. We have seen this often (in part because we did this stuff). Distance between a protector and electronics INCREASES protection. Distance from protector to earth ground is a most critical parameter for effective protection ... from the other and typically destructive surge. Even power strip protectors need protection only possible by earthing one 'whole house' protector.

Excellent information and great examples of problems. Utilities by now should have figured out a better way to protect ground wires and ground rods than plastic or wooden "protectors" and hose clamps and they ought to be required to maintain them. I suppose it will take some substantial human damage and more than a few lawsuits for someone to write a "standard" and mandated compliance. Too bad.

Tomsic

[trader4]

Then you agree that this, which you posted, is untrue:

"A 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in every facil ity that cannot have damage. "

Protection in a line card is equivalent to protection found inside all hou sehold appliances. All appliances (and line cards) already contain protect ion that would otherwise be on its adjacent power wire. All appliances (an d line cards) have best protection on lines entering the facility - properl y earthed 'whole house' protection.

Protection on a line card, as I said, is part of a TIERED protection strategy. A strategy that can include plug-in surge protectors. See the IEEE guide. Also, still waiting all these years for the answer to how can that surge protection on a line card or inside an appliance be effective surge protectors, when there is no direct earth ground? Yet the same components, MOVs, placed inside a plug-in surge protector according to you, offer no protection or can damage eqpt. Explain that contradiction.

' protector and nothing more.

Now you're lying. Look at the IEEE guide. Bud gave the link for all to see. It talks about tiered protection and it is *not* just one whole house surge protector. Who should folks believe? IEEE and NIST or you?

An earthed 'whole house' protector is his "secondary" protection.

Each layer of protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector . A homeowner's "primary" protection layer is elsewhere.

Really? Where would that be?

Consumers should also inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates that most important component:

Tell that to Boeing. Where do they dissipate a lightning strike that hits a 777? Yet the aircraft is protected.

And tell that to yourself too, because in this very post, you acknowledge that appliance manufacturers put surge protection inside appliances. Where does that energy dissipate with no direct, nearby, earth ground?

An effective protector makes a connection to what does protection. The on ly solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Includ ing telco switching centers, radio and TV broadcast stations, and even muni tions dumps. The solution that rarely exists in homes because so many fool ishly think that power strip protects from the other and typically destruct ive surge. It doesn?t.

0.2% >additional protection.

Good grief dude, are you suffering from memory loss? Bud will have a good laugh at that one too, I'm sure.

Which ones would those be? Please show us some examples.

And since internal MOVs do little to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.

Can they protect from all surges? No. Are they useful as part of a tiered protection strategy? Yes. That's why the are in virtually every appliance. The same is true of plug-in surge protectors, which use devices, MOVs, with a lot more capacity than those in the appliance. Which is better? Have a plug-in surge protector connected to a TV that has a medium size MOV in it, or just rely on the smaller MOV in the TV? And remember, that MOVs degrade a bit with each surge. Would you rather have a good portion of any surge go through the $25 plug-in and then have the $2000 TV deal with the rest, or all of it go to the TV?

Tiered:

Whole house Plug-ins Inside the appliance

ion. The informed homeowner is concerned with another and typically destru ctive transient. A transient that can overwhelm existing protection. That transient can only be diverted by properly earthed protectors.

Then why do the above line cards have surge protection at all? According to you, it's worthless because the facility already has protection on the lines where they enter the building. Why do you continue to contradict yourself?

A 'whole house' solution is even necessary to protect 'point of connection ' protectors ... that otherwise only protect from something that is typical ly not destructive.

. And the 'whole house' protector must still exist. Spend about $1 per pr otected appliance for about 99.5% protection - one properly earthed 'whole house' protector to protect from all type of surges. Then spend $25 or $80 per appliance to protect mostly from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Yes, install a tiered solution. But that is done with protect ion already inside each appliance, by what is required (and typically missi ng) in most homes (a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), and the alr eady existing 'primary' protection layer.

The nonsense repeated, because you're on what amounts to a religous crusade.

m to protect from the typically destructive surge. That other surge is typ ically made irrelevant by what already exists even in dimmer switches, CFL light bulbs, computers, clocks, the furnace and air conditioner, and even s moke detectors.

How is that possible? According to you there is no protection unless those smoke detectors are connected directly to a ground rod? And again, which would you prefer deal with any surges that are coming in on the cord of a $2000 TV. The small MOV in the TV, or the much bigger one in the $25 surge protector?

important - better earthing. And either a wire connection or a 'whole hous e' protector connection to what actually does the protection - earth ground .

Informed consumers should read the IEEE and other links provided by Bud. They say you're wrong.

and too close to appliances. So it earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. We have seen this often (in part because we did this stuff). Distance between a protector and electronics INCREASES p rotection. Distance from protector to earth ground is a most critical para meter for effective protection ... from the other and typically destructive surge. Even power strip protectors need protection only possible by earth ing one 'whole house' protector.

No link provided, so we have no figure or context, just your interpretation.

[trader4]

No.... A point of use protector that works? Why that's impossible according to Tom. You should have seen more destruction, caused by the protector, according to him.

[trader4]

What utilities are using hose clamps to secure earth ground wires? As far as standards, they already exist. NEC, for example, defines acceptable grounding methods, materials, practices, etc. PS: Hose clamps are not allowed.

[The Daring Dufas]

********Trim Da Phat********

Well, first of all, we always replaced capacitors with those of a higher voltage rating. But the hard wired protectors right there on the condensing unit and indoor furnace protected them. ^_^

TDD

[westom]

As I have said repeatedly, anything that a plug-in protector might do is al ready done better inside appliances (or line card). Please read what I pos ted. Not what you want to read.

We were not discussing solutions that come standard in all appliances (ev en dimmer switches and GFCIs). We are discussing a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts that sell at $25, $40 or $100 for obscene profits. Th at protector is tiniest protection without a 'whole house' protector. And does little when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed.

I am not discussing in black and white extremist rhetoric that you are re posting. Why spend so much money on 'point of connection' protectors when that protection exists inside each appliance. Where is money better spent? To upgrade what best defines protection - the single point earth ground.

One method for even better protection is Ufer grounds. Because a protect or is only as effective as its earth ground. But again, that does not say the plug-in protector is useless. Just not cost effective as you would hav e others believe.

The other and effective protector connects surge energy low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. It is not 100% protection. But the least expensive solution does most all protection. IEEE even provides pe rspective: "a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct st rokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... P rotection at 99.5% is the practical choice."

For most homeowners, that is sufficient. For facilities that cannot have damage, that is essential. Facilities that cannot have damage always use a 'whole house' solution. Even 'point of connection' protectors need that protection to avert house fires.

Why are you trying to sell plug-in protector without a 'whole house' solu tion? Why are you promoting that scam?

[westom]

Standard already exists. But some utilities have a history of worrying mor e about profits and less about the product. New Jersey assigned a PUC comm issioner only for First Energy due to repeated reliability violations.

One was not fixing compromised earth grounds. Some municipalities even h ad to create ordinances. A $5000 per day fine every day someone was shocke d in their swimming pool or jacuzzi. Only then did First Energy permit the ir linemen to fix earth grounds.

[trader4]

already done better inside appliances (or line card).

Just because you repeat something that is wrong or a lie, doesn't make it true.

We've all read what you've posted, many times over the years.

even dimmer switches and GFCIs). We are discussing a $3 power strip with te n cent protector parts that sell at $25, $40 or $100 for obscene profits. That protector is tiniest protection without a 'whole house' protector. An d does little when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed.

What comes standard in an appliance is just one small part of the discussion. And if you look at the price of components, you will find that the MOVs inside a plug-in surge protector don't cost 10 cents, they cost substantially more. The ones inside the appliance, while costing less, aren't 10 cents.

Good grief! You are exactly that. I'm not the one here on a religious crusade against plug-in surge protectors. Another curious aspect. I post here on a wide variety of topics, almost daily. Why is it that we only see you here when a post has "surge protector" in it? If that isn't a sign of someone obsessed with one issue, I don't know what is.

Why spend so much money on 'point of connection' protectors when that prot ection exists inside each appliance.

So that if a 2000V surge comes along, it first arrives at the $25 plug-in protector, it starts to clamp the voltages, starts to shunt it to ground, instead of the $2000 TV. Got it now?

Where is money better spent? To upgrade what best defines protection - t he single point earth ground.

Nobody is arguing that good grounding practices, a whole house surge protector, is not the first line of defense. But your position is like saying, locking the doors is all that one needs do to secure a house and having a safe, window bars, hiding valuables, etc is a waste.

I don't believe that is true either. While they make good grounds, I haven't seen anything that says you can't have equal protection with a ground rod in suitable soil.

Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

The lie repeated. Still waiting for that explanation. Appliances have MOVs for surge protection. The same devices, just smaller, as found in plub-in surge protectors. So, how the hell can they work with out the appliance being directly connected to an earth ground?

But again, that does not say the plug-in protector is useless. Just not cost effective as you would have others believe.

So, which is it? You say they are worthless. You say they actually cause damage. Now you suddenly say they are not useless.

ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. It is not 100% protection. But t he least expensive solution does most all protection. IEEE even provides perspective: "a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice."

Again, you're telling us what IEEE says, with no link. Funny thing that.

ve damage, that is essential. Facilities that cannot have damage always us e a 'whole house' solution.

Yes as part of a TIERED STRATEGY. It's *not* the only surge protection. Just like IEEE recommends.

Even 'point of connection' protectors need that protection to avert house fires.

lution? Why are you promoting that scam?

Why is it that when you have no links, no credible sources to support your claims, that you resort to accusing anyone who does, of being a paid saleperson for or connected to a surge protector company?

[thekmanrocks]

You guys do know this is the peak year of a solar max, don't you?

[thekmanrocks]

[e-mail] "Just because you repeat something that is wrong or a lie, doesn't make it true."

Fox News became the most-watched cable news outlet in America by repeating shit. lmao!