On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:55:28 PM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
t water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can ha
ve it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it dra
ining at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very
Odd, I could have sworn I already admitted you guys were right and I was lo
oking at a different hook up.
Here, I'll try it again.
I WAS WRONG. I typed that slow for you.
On Sunday, November 30, 2014 1:38:27 PM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Look at the flow chart again. well-pressuretank-house-storagetank. The storage tank is at the end of the 'pipe line" and has no exit. Water is not flowing in and out of it unless you somehow allow air to enter the tank.
Now you change it to a normal pressure tank - what happened to your idea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tank empties?
Answer - you don't, all you have is the same amount of residual water just as if you had added a second pressure tank.'
The whole discussion was about how to have 50 gal water left after the first tank empties.
Now with well - storage - presuretank- house. Water is flowing through the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.
That is the set-up as I understood it from your first post. I was wrong.
You put a second tank after that. Connect the
Already answered, it is in the pressurized system with input/output.
Correct, but I pointed out you can plumb it with the storage tank at the end of the run where the water is NOT running through the tank. That was my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.
Bottom line is I still don't see any way to have 50 gal storage water left when the regular pressure tank empties.
On Monday, December 1, 2014 1:28:28 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
You posted a chart? Where is that? The above is not a chart. And
there is no pipeline to show how it's interconnected, what the flow
Only if you're dumb enough to plumb it that way. Of course that is not
what I suggested. It's not what I and Stormin have been telling you about.
I have clearly said over and over to put the tank in the water flow path.
That's the simple, rational thing to do, so why are we back to a tank
with only one connection, dead-ended?
Yeah, if you put the tank off on it's own, with only
one connection. I said to put it in the water flow, with *two* connections.
Take a look at your water heater.
I haven't changed anything. Good grief. One more time. You have a well
with a typical pressure tank. You can put an additional storage tank inline
with that. Most likely, you'd put it after the pressure tank. But you
could put it before the pressure tank, ie between the well and the pressure
tank and it would also work. It fills with water and stays filled during
normal operation. In an emergency, the water is there.
Baloney. You have an additional tank full of water. Why is that so hard to
comprehend? You have a 50 gal water heater. If you take it out, you have
50 gal less residual water.
And once again, I provided a solution. Put an additional tank inline.
Why doesn't it empty? Plugged up? If I open a drain at the bottom, water
will run out. It will run out faster with a vent at the top, but even
with no vent it will run out. Turn off your water supply and open the
valve on the bottom of a water heater. Water comes out. Plus, it's
trivial to add a vent valve. I even suggested that he could plumb in a
tank of compressed air, then he's have pressurized water to the whole
You're still wrong, because the tank would still be full of water and
avaialable whether it's before or after the pressure tank.
It's also in the pressurized system if it's *before* the pressure tank,
at least in a typical system. The check valve is typically in the well.
Go look at your water heater. It has 50 gal of water left when the power
goes out and you use up the pressurized water. Good grief.
On Monday, December 1, 2014 12:44:29 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
So you are unable to understand that those "-"s represent pipes between the
Now you have changed the storage tank to a pressure tank. Make up your min
d. You cannot have a tank that has water coming in the bottom and out the
top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I have also said REPEATEDLY that I misunderstood and was wrong.
Again, that is what is what I ,isunderstood at the start and again I was WR
ONG. Repeat after me "Harry was Wrong" Got it?
that BOTH tanks will drain. You won't wind up with 50 gal water left afte
r the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was after
to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
If you are going to be using two pressure tanks there is no need to run the
m in series, i.e., one with water in the bottom and out the top.
And in your lashup both tanks will drain and you won't have 50 gallons in r
eserve. I really can see no way to hook one up so you would have it.
Okay, what is keeping that 50 gal storage tank from draining? It is open a
t top and bottom connected to the house supply.
n then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank t
o allow it to drain.
Change the 'storage' to 'pressure tank' as you seem to be doing now and it
will definitely drain
Atmospheric pressure working against the vacuum caused when the water tries
It _may_ drain by going "glug.....glug..." sucking air out of somewhere but
I have my doubts.
Have you decided yet whether that second tank is pressure or just tank wit
h water flowing through it? You can't have both.
nd tell us how that works.
It can be either before or after. Mine happens to be neither - it comes of
f a T to the pressure tank. Thus it draws water from either the tank or dir
ect from the well when the pump is running.
my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got
it that whay.
Hmmm....Okay, that would work if you plumb in the storage tank to fill at t
he bottom through a dip tube like the hotwater tank does.
On Monday, December 1, 2014 3:19:51 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
e top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I haven't changed a thing. Feel free to go back and look at my original
post. I said put an additional tank after the existing pressure tank. Plu
it so water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Stormin understood what
I meant. So, apparently did Anthony, who asked the question. I never said
to use a pressure tank, a regular tank will work.
It's a tank full of
water during normal operation. It is under pressure, the same pressure tha
the rest of the water system in the house is under. If the power goes off,
you have that whole extra tank of water available for use. Open a drain
valve at the bottom and it will run out into a bucket for use. I even said
that if he wanted to he could have a tank of compressed air, nitrogen, etc
available and plumbed in so he could have pressurized water during an outag
Again, how do you think a water heater works?
Yeah, after you took some cheap shots.
But then you keep blathering on. Now it's some nonsense saying that
I changed from "storage tank" to "pressure tank". Never did any such thing
I just said put in an additional tank and told Anthony exactly how to do
ter the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was aft
er to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
Actually you will end up with that second tank full of water. If power
goes out and you just use water from faucets, until the pressure goes to
zero, does your water heater empty? The water heater doesn't empty. Neith
will the extra tank of cold water.
Show me where I ever said to use two pressure tanks. You can't because I
never did. A pressure tank has air. There is no need for it in a second
tank that's used for additional water storage. Any more than there is in
your water heater. You really need to think about the water heater. I've
brought it up several times now and you continue to ignore it.
No, the pressure will slowly drop, the air volume in the pressure tank will
increase. The water volume in the second inline tank will stay the same,
just like your water heater does. Whatever volume of water he can pull
out of his existing pressure tank, before the pressure goes to zero, he
can still pull. And at that point the storage tank will still be full.
Just like your water heater.
That's because you continue to be totally confused. Try looking at your
It's not open at the top. The top is connected to the cold water plumbing
that feeds the house. The bottom is conntected to the pressure tank. EXAC
like your water heater. Let's say his existing cold water piping is 1" for
the first 10 ft. Imagine that pipe gets bigger, 2", 10", 30". Morph it
into a tank. That;s essentially what you have when you plumb in a second
tank as I described. It stays full of water.
ven then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank
to allow it to drain.
I haven't changed, you're still confused.
So now you're telling me that if I open a drain valve in the bottom of
a tank that's full of water and as long as there is no air vent at the top,
water can't come out? You've never heard gurgle, gurgle?
Not that it matters, because again from the very first post I said to put
a vent valve in the top or even connect it to a cylinder of compressed air.
You think? And I said put a vent if you want it to come out fast/easy
or compressed air tank and he can have the house system pressurized and
functioning. No gurgle required. Good grief.
Per my original post, it's just a tank. I never said to use a second
and tell us how that works.
They why all the fussing before as to whether it's before or after?
> > Go look at your water heater. It has 50 gal of water left when the po
Good grief. No dip tube is required. The tank will fill via sn inlet at
the bottom. A water heater would too.
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:53:39 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
Not if it's a pressure tank. You dragged pressure tanks into the discussion
of the solution that I proposed, though one is not required. But since you're
talking about it, I would think you'd realize that a pressure type tank,
ie one with air in it, can be anywhere on the system and the water level
in it will rise and fall
in sync with the water level in the original pressure tank. That's one of
the advantages of a pressure type tank, you would not have stagnant water.
The other is that it provides pressure,
so that he'd have more water under pressure, ie it would flow normally through
faucets, etc longer. The disadvantage is that for a tank size of X, a
pressure tank probably holds about 1/2X that as water, the rest is air.
How does water magically "drain out" in a water system? And you continue
to refuse to address the excellent learning examples I gave you:
How does a water heater stay full of water when the power goes out and
the cold water is used up?
Imagine you have a cold water pipe that's 1" for 5 ft after the pressure
tank in a typical system. Now make that pipe 4". What happens? Make
it 8". Make it 30". Now you essentially have the tank I proposed.
Anything draining out? Any stagnant water? Is it a "pressure tank"?
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 4:06:32 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
True if it is a pressure tank. You specified storage tank.
Okay, I'm back
Because it is either pressurized or something is open lower than the tank of course.
1. It doesn't run out while the pressurized water is running because the outlet is closed (until a hot water faucet is opened.
2. It doesn't after the pressurized water is done because of the dip-tube plumbing. Water doesnt' run uphill unless it is being pushed by something.
If it is after the take-off to the house, it will drain when the pressure goes down. As long as there is pressure in the system it will contain dead water.
If it is anywhere in the system prior to house take-off it is just a regular part of a pressurized system.
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 12:03:55 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
Idiot, clearly in the paragraph above I'm talking about a *pressure tank*,
which you dragged in here and want to add to the mix. See the last sentence where it says "pressure tank"? Good grief.
Once again, your writing is not clear. I assume that when you say
"because it is either pressurized" you really mean "because it's
pressurized and someone opens a faucet, etc. So, what you're describing
is the normal usage of water out of the system. That wasn't the question.
The question is why under normal operating conditions, if I've added
a second tank (not a pressure tank, just a tank), in series with the
first as I described, why would that tank not be full of water when
the power goes out? Answer?
When the power goes out, nothing will change until someone draws water.
The 50 gallon tank (not a pressure type tank with air that you keep
harping about), plumbed in series with his existing pressure tank is still
full of water. That's what I described in my first post and you still
don't get it.
Same thing happens with the second storage tank in series with the first.
It doesn't run out of water either. Whatever water is left in the pressure
tank when the power goes out, will flow through the second added tank
and out any faucet
you open. When the pressure drops to close to zero, the flow will stop.
The extra tank, just like thw WH, will still be full of water. Got it now?
Same thing happens with the second storage tank. The dip tube is irrelevant.
How is the water from that 50 gal extra tank going to flow to the kitchen/bath
faucets? It can't one the pressure is gone from the existing pressure tank.
It remains full. The water will flow out if you open a drain valve and
let it flow into a bucket for use.
How the hell is it going to drain? The only possible way is by gravity
and in every house I've lived in the pressure tank, pump, whatever was
lower than the faucets, toilets, etc. Is it possible to have that,
sure. Is it typical, what you seem in almost all cases? No.
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:42:39 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
One more try.
Perhaps if you would concentrate one what is being posted instead of insults you might get the point.
Your lash up will work IF HYOU PLUMB YOUR PRECIOUS STORAGE TANK WITH WATER COMING IN THROUGH A DIP TUBE.
Why would one plumbed the normal way empty? Because as the pressure drops in the pressure tank (regular one), the weight of water in the storage one will force water out of it.
There is a problem with that last paragraph but I'll leave you to find it.
On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:59:01 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
IF YOU could concentrate on the posts, I wouldn't be using the insults.
But when I post a new paragraph specifically about "prssure tanks" and
then you come back with "that only works if it's a pressure tank, not
if it's a storage tank", what do you expect? And then you claim I switched
to pressure tanks, which is either incorrect or an outright lie. I only
addressed pressure tanks because YOU brought it up. And you started it
with accusing Stormin and me of not understanding hydraulics. So, sorry,
but I can only stand so much.
BS. It will work exactly as I described. One more time, you put a simple
storage tank inline, after his existing pressure tank. You plumb it so
water goes in the bottom, out the top. It will fill entirely with water.
That water will still be there when the power goes off, it does not
magically disappear. No dip tube is required.
Again, you refuse to address the instructables I have given you. Let's
say he has a 6 ft section of 1" pipe right after the pressure tank.
Under normal opertaion, it's full of water now. Replace it with a 2" diameter
section. Is it still full?
Replace it with a 30" diameter, is it still full? Now stand it on end,
so water comes in the botton, goes out the top. Is it still full? Does
water somehow now magically disappear?
There is your tank full of water. I detailed that out 3 times now, yet
you still refuse to address it, answer those questions that show how
Force water out of what exactly and to where? The standing column of water
in the additional tank exerts the same PSI at the bottom of the tank
as the standing column of water in his existing piping that supplies the
house. Let's say he has a 1" feed from the pump and pressure tank on the
floor going up from the floor, upstairs to feed the house. When the power
goes out, he opens a cold
faucet in a sink and lets it run until no more water comes out. At that
point, whatever pressure is at the bottom of the pressure tank is due to
the standing column of water. It depends only on it's height, not
it's volume. Whatever pressure is there, is due to the total height, all
the way to the second floor, wherever the heighest water point is in the
system. Put a tank inline with that, let the power go out. Measure the
pressure at the bottom of the pressure tank and it will be exactly the
same. It's the max height of the water, not the volume.
And you said Stormin and I don't understand hydraulics? Good grief.
On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:51:31 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
Yes, and will drain with the regular tank. Fill through a dip tube from the tope and it will not drain. That is the point you keep overlooking over how many posts now?
After I pointed out the problem with stagnant water and tanks not draining then you shifted to that version - solved the stagnant water part but still didn't solve the 'drain at same time' problem.
I already addressed it several times but you were so busy with insults you didn't think about it.
You then went on for post after post inserting special asir valves, tanks of compressed air with special valves, etc. IOW you do see the 'draining" and "stagnant water" problems.
0ut of your "storage" tank of and into the pipe draining the regular tank of course. Remember you are now talking about one in series but filling/emptying through the bottom.
Exactly. Which is why it is emptying at the same rate the regular one does.
Correct but don't forget your pressure tank, storage tank and all piping is interconnected. One rule of hydraulics is that in all closed systems, the pressure is equal everywhere (measured at the same height of course as in your example).
The Storage tank (again one that has empty/fill at bottom) will not drain out 'at the same rate' or even as far, it will only drain until the vacuum formed in the top of the tank equals the atmospheric pressure. Back to stagnant water again.
Storage tank 'in series' with fill bottom/exit top is interconnected and will drain at same rate.
Now go back to 'fill through dip tube' you now have your storage tank in series, water being exchanged and it WILL NOT DRAIN until you want it to, i.e., you have the system you were after.
You have been fiddling with your first version since the start trying to solve the problems I brought up but didn't spot the error I was making (shown above) about the tank draining.
"Ill install air valve, tank of compressed air, change to fill at bottom and exit at top, etc" Then brought up the hot water tank and keep somehow overlooking, ignoring or failing to understand why that would make the whole thing work simply.
On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:27:51 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
Good grief. I haven't overlooked it. You just don't understand basic
physics. I explained exactly what happens when you add a storage tank
as I described. One more time. You add a regular tank, after the pressure
tank. It's plumbed so the water enters from the bottom, feeds to the house
from the top. Under nornal operation it's always full of water.
Water constantly flows through it just as if it were a pipe.
When the power goes out, at first, nothing happens. Then as you use water,
it functions exactly as before, with water flowing from the pressure tank,
through the storage tank, until the pressure is so low, close to zero, so
that the water no longer can flow. At that point there is still a small
amount of water left in the original pressure tank, just like before, and
THE STORAGE TANK IS STILL FULL.
If you disagree, instead of just saying it ain't so, why can't you tell us
where the missing water goes? I have a 30 gal pressure tank. I want extra
water storage, so I add an 80 gal tank as I described. The system is
in normal operation, the 80 gallon tank is full, the pressure tank is
cycling normally. When the power goes out, the pressure tank has 15 gallons
in it. So, now we have 80 gallons in the storage tank, 15 in the pressure
tank. Where oh where does the 80 gallons magically disappear to?
Now you're lying. Here, from my first post in the thread, *before* you
even made a post:
"Or add that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets. I guess you
could also plumb in a tank of compressed air that you could activate,
that would then provide pressure, so that you could use the full 80
or whatever gallons. "
So, I never said to use a pressure tank. And if you have a clue about
pressure tanks, you'd know that it can't be a pressure tank from the
above, because I said "it's always full of water". A pressure tank,
at least a functioning one, is never full of water, it always has
some air in it. And while I thought that the intent being that it
should always be full of water, everyone would understand that you
of course plumb it with the water coming in the bottom, exiting the top.
Not hard to grasp.
And once again, you refuse to address the examples I'm giving that show
you're wrong. You didn't address the clear example where I morphed an
existing system with a 1" diameter pipe into a tank that's 30" in diameter.
The pipe is full. The tank is full. You're wrong and that's why you
won't even address it.
Liar. Everyone can see that you haven't addressed the example where I
morphed a 1" vertical supply pipe, step by step, into a tank. Pipe
stays full. Tank stays full.
You're such a liar. I just re-posted for you my very first post on the
subject. It described the inline system, with no possibility of
stagnation, including the possibility of adding
an air tank. BTW, Claire suggested exactly the same inline tank too.
How the hell does water flow back the other way? Water under normal operation
flows from the pump to the pressure tank, throught the inline tank full of
water, and out a faucet in the kitchen. It's just like it flows through a
1" vertical supply line, with no storage tank. When power goes out,
the pump no longer
supplies water. At that point, if you open a faucet, water continues to flow
from the pressure tank, through the full storage tank of water, out the faucet.
Eventually, the pressure drops close to zero and the flow stops. At that
point the pressure tank is mostly empty, the storage tank is full. How
in the hell would the flow suddenly reverse? And where would say 80 gallons
of water from the storage tank go? Good grief.
It would help stop confusion if you could learn to stop using
terms like "regular one". If by regular one, you mean the pressure tank,
you're wrong. The pressure tank has air in it that expands as water
leaves. The storage tank, plumbed inline is no different than a 1"
piece of vertical pipe. It stays full. Which of course is why you won't
or can't address the example I gave of morphing a 1" vertical pipe that
already supplies the house from the existing pressure tank into a 30" one.
Does the 1" pipe empty when power goes out? no. Would a 2" pipe empty? no
So why would the 30" pipe, ie a tank as I described empty?
It's actually kind of funny. At one point you were claiming that a
storage tank would not drain through a drain valve if it were opened
at the bottom. Now you're arguing that a storage tank magically drains
on it's own, to parts unknown.
Thanks for repeating what I just told you.
It's not draining out. Water from the pressure tank is pushing water
into the bottom of the inline storage tank and out the top. Just like
if it were a 1" pipe, 2" pipe, 20" pipe, 30" pipe. Bingo, we have a storage
tank! And stagnant water? Water is flowing through the inline tank all
the time. Good grief, you're confused.
You're such a liar. My description was clear and consistent. My first
post, I re-posted. And WTF? Your error about the tank draining?
You're still saying the added storage tank drains. Good grief.
Just show us where I posted what you quoted above. I never said that strung
together sentence. I never said to "change to fill at bottom".
You're such a liar. I did say he could optionally use a tank of compressed air if he wants to get the water out of the faucets during an outage, instead of
just drawing it in a bucket from the tank. And I said that in my very first post, before you even posted a word, idiot.
I brought up the water heater because it's a simple example of a tank that
stays full of water when the power goes off. And it has nothing to do
with the dip tube. You're focusing on the nits and ignoring the fundementals.
I could replumb a water heater so that instead of using the cold water
connection on the top, I feed cold water into it at the bottom. If the
power goes out, if I open a hot water tap, water will flow until the
pressure reaches near zero. At that point the water heater will still be
full of water. Capiche?
From what I know of well systems, the air in
the pressure tank is captive. It won't do a
bit of good, to clear the 1/4 mile line between
When I winterize RV for the church's camp ground,
I use a portable electric compressor, and a blow
out adapter or two.
How about yourself, and the 1/4 mile line?
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
1) you use compressed air to clear the water line
2) The compressed air is in the holding tank
3) The demand pump clears the water line
I hope the gentle readers on this list can make
more sense than what I'm seeing. I'm getting dizzy,
reading your posts.
On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:51:57 PM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
One last try. One of us needs to use the 1/4 mile interconnect but must flush the line first.
Walk out and turn on any outside faucet and let it run. What happens? Answer, the line gets flushed and there is no need to use any other source of compressed air.
You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would mean
it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.
When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5 gallon
plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping trips.
Took to neighbors and filled them.
Your daughter can fill a kitchen pot from the water can and dump into
the toilet tank. Sure, takes more time.
If the road to a neighbor with power is open, make a deal with them to
fill you cans. You do have a pickup, don't you?
If the water is stored in the dark and kept cool, it should last as long
as the winter storms are possible. then dump and refill at the beginning
of next winter.
Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994. More
than a week.
Paul, in Central Oregon
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