Backup for Well Water During Power Outages

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On 11/30/2014 4:38 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Trader and I appear to be wasting effort.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:55:28 PM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:

t water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can ha ve it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it dra ining at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very well.

Odd, I could have sworn I already admitted you guys were right and I was lo oking at a different hook up.
Here, I'll try it again.
I WAS WRONG. I typed that slow for you.
Harry K
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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 1:38:27 PM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

<snip>

Look at the flow chart again. well-pressuretank-house-storagetank. The storage tank is at the end of the 'pipe line" and has no exit. Water is not flowing in and out of it unless you somehow allow air to enter the tank.
Now you change it to a normal pressure tank - what happened to your idea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tank empties?
Answer - you don't, all you have is the same amount of residual water just as if you had added a second pressure tank.'
The whole discussion was about how to have 50 gal water left after the first tank empties.
Now with well - storage - presuretank- house. Water is flowing through the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.
That is the set-up as I understood it from your first post. I was wrong.
You put a second tank after that. Connect the

Already answered, it is in the pressurized system with input/output.

Correct, but I pointed out you can plumb it with the storage tank at the end of the run where the water is NOT running through the tank. That was my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.
Bottom line is I still don't see any way to have 50 gal storage water left when the regular pressure tank empties.
Harry K
Harry K
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On Monday, December 1, 2014 1:28:28 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

You posted a chart? Where is that? The above is not a chart. And there is no pipeline to show how it's interconnected, what the flow is.

Only if you're dumb enough to plumb it that way. Of course that is not what I suggested. It's not what I and Stormin have been telling you about. I have clearly said over and over to put the tank in the water flow path. That's the simple, rational thing to do, so why are we back to a tank with only one connection, dead-ended?

Yeah, if you put the tank off on it's own, with only one connection. I said to put it in the water flow, with *two* connections. Take a look at your water heater.

I haven't changed anything. Good grief. One more time. You have a well with a typical pressure tank. You can put an additional storage tank inline with that. Most likely, you'd put it after the pressure tank. But you could put it before the pressure tank, ie between the well and the pressure tank and it would also work. It fills with water and stays filled during normal operation. In an emergency, the water is there.

Baloney. You have an additional tank full of water. Why is that so hard to comprehend? You have a 50 gal water heater. If you take it out, you have 50 gal less residual water.

And once again, I provided a solution. Put an additional tank inline.

Why doesn't it empty? Plugged up? If I open a drain at the bottom, water will run out. It will run out faster with a vent at the top, but even with no vent it will run out. Turn off your water supply and open the valve on the bottom of a water heater. Water comes out. Plus, it's trivial to add a vent valve. I even suggested that he could plumb in a tank of compressed air, then he's have pressurized water to the whole house.

You're still wrong, because the tank would still be full of water and avaialable whether it's before or after the pressure tank.

It's also in the pressurized system if it's *before* the pressure tank, at least in a typical system. The check valve is typically in the well.

Go look at your water heater. It has 50 gal of water left when the power goes out and you use up the pressurized water. Good grief.
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On Monday, December 1, 2014 12:44:29 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

So you are unable to understand that those "-"s represent pipes between the tanks?

Now you have changed the storage tank to a pressure tank. Make up your min d. You cannot have a tank that has water coming in the bottom and out the top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I have also said REPEATEDLY that I misunderstood and was wrong.


Again, that is what is what I ,isunderstood at the start and again I was WR ONG. Repeat after me "Harry was Wrong" Got it?

empties?

that BOTH tanks will drain. You won't wind up with 50 gal water left afte r the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was after to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
If you are going to be using two pressure tanks there is no need to run the m in series, i.e., one with water in the bottom and out the top.

And in your lashup both tanks will drain and you won't have 50 gallons in r eserve. I really can see no way to hook one up so you would have it.


Okay, what is keeping that 50 gal storage tank from draining? It is open a t top and bottom connected to the house supply.

n then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank t o allow it to drain.
Change the 'storage' to 'pressure tank' as you seem to be doing now and it will definitely drain

Atmospheric pressure working against the vacuum caused when the water tries to drain.
It _may_ drain by going "glug.....glug..." sucking air out of somewhere but I have my doubts.


Have you decided yet whether that second tank is pressure or just tank wit h water flowing through it? You can't have both.

nd tell us how that works.

Correct
It can be either before or after. Mine happens to be neither - it comes of f a T to the pressure tank. Thus it draws water from either the tank or dir ect from the well when the pump is running.



my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.


Hmmm....Okay, that would work if you plumb in the storage tank to fill at t he bottom through a dip tube like the hotwater tank does.
Harry K
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On Monday, December 1, 2014 3:19:51 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

e top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.
I haven't changed a thing. Feel free to go back and look at my original post. I said put an additional tank after the existing pressure tank. Plu mb it so water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Stormin understood what I meant. So, apparently did Anthony, who asked the question. I never said to use a pressure tank, a regular tank will work.
It's a tank full of water during normal operation. It is under pressure, the same pressure tha t the rest of the water system in the house is under. If the power goes off, you have that whole extra tank of water available for use. Open a drain valve at the bottom and it will run out into a bucket for use. I even said that if he wanted to he could have a tank of compressed air, nitrogen, etc available and plumbed in so he could have pressurized water during an outag e.
Again, how do you think a water heater works?

Yeah, after you took some cheap shots. But then you keep blathering on. Now it's some nonsense saying that I changed from "storage tank" to "pressure tank". Never did any such thing . I just said put in an additional tank and told Anthony exactly how to do it.

k empties?

ter the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was aft er to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.
Actually you will end up with that second tank full of water. If power goes out and you just use water from faucets, until the pressure goes to zero, does your water heater empty? The water heater doesn't empty. Neith er will the extra tank of cold water.

Show me where I ever said to use two pressure tanks. You can't because I never did. A pressure tank has air. There is no need for it in a second tank that's used for additional water storage. Any more than there is in your water heater. You really need to think about the water heater. I've brought it up several times now and you continue to ignore it.

No, the pressure will slowly drop, the air volume in the pressure tank will increase. The water volume in the second inline tank will stay the same, just like your water heater does. Whatever volume of water he can pull out of his existing pressure tank, before the pressure goes to zero, he can still pull. And at that point the storage tank will still be full. Just like your water heater.

That's because you continue to be totally confused. Try looking at your water heater.

It's not open at the top. The top is connected to the cold water plumbing that feeds the house. The bottom is conntected to the pressure tank. EXAC TLY like your water heater. Let's say his existing cold water piping is 1" for the first 10 ft. Imagine that pipe gets bigger, 2", 10", 30". Morph it into a tank. That;s essentially what you have when you plumb in a second tank as I described. It stays full of water.

ven then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.

I haven't changed, you're still confused.

So now you're telling me that if I open a drain valve in the bottom of a tank that's full of water and as long as there is no air vent at the top, water can't come out? You've never heard gurgle, gurgle?
Not that it matters, because again from the very first post I said to put a vent valve in the top or even connect it to a cylinder of compressed air.

You think? And I said put a vent if you want it to come out fast/easy or compressed air tank and he can have the house system pressurized and functioning. No gurgle required. Good grief.

Per my original post, it's just a tank. I never said to use a second pressurized tank.

and tell us how that works.

They why all the fussing before as to whether it's before or after?
> > Go look at your water heater. It has 50 gal of water left when the po wer

Good grief. No dip tube is required. The tank will fill via sn inlet at the bottom. A water heater would too.
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On Monday, December 1, 2014 2:45:56 PM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

the top be a "pressure tank" - it is impossible.

ank empties?

after the storage tank empties. That was my understanding of what he was a fter to begin with. I was probably wrong about that also.

Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage ta nk to allow it to drain.

nk and tell us how that works.

Only one "fussing" that if you put it at the end of the run (after the take -off to the house), you will wind up with a tank of stale, stagnant water.

Fill with inlet at bottom? Of course it would. It would also drain out alo ng with the pressure tank.
But have it your way...bye.
Harry K
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On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:53:39 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

Not if it's a pressure tank. You dragged pressure tanks into the discussion of the solution that I proposed, though one is not required. But since you're talking about it, I would think you'd realize that a pressure type tank, ie one with air in it, can be anywhere on the system and the water level in it will rise and fall in sync with the water level in the original pressure tank. That's one of the advantages of a pressure type tank, you would not have stagnant water. The other is that it provides pressure, so that he'd have more water under pressure, ie it would flow normally through faucets, etc longer. The disadvantage is that for a tank size of X, a pressure tank probably holds about 1/2X that as water, the rest is air.

How does water magically "drain out" in a water system? And you continue to refuse to address the excellent learning examples I gave you:
How does a water heater stay full of water when the power goes out and the cold water is used up?
Imagine you have a cold water pipe that's 1" for 5 ft after the pressure tank in a typical system. Now make that pipe 4". What happens? Make it 8". Make it 30". Now you essentially have the tank I proposed. Anything draining out? Any stagnant water? Is it a "pressure tank"? Good grief.
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On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 4:06:32 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

True if it is a pressure tank. You specified storage tank.
<snip>

Okay, I'm back

Because it is either pressurized or something is open lower than the tank of course.

Answer:
1. It doesn't run out while the pressurized water is running because the outlet is closed (until a hot water faucet is opened.
2. It doesn't after the pressurized water is done because of the dip-tube plumbing. Water doesnt' run uphill unless it is being pushed by something.

If it is after the take-off to the house, it will drain when the pressure goes down. As long as there is pressure in the system it will contain dead water.
If it is anywhere in the system prior to house take-off it is just a regular part of a pressurized system.
Harry K
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On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 12:03:55 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

Idiot, clearly in the paragraph above I'm talking about a *pressure tank*, which you dragged in here and want to add to the mix. See the last sentence where it says "pressure tank"? Good grief.

Once again, your writing is not clear. I assume that when you say "because it is either pressurized" you really mean "because it's pressurized and someone opens a faucet, etc. So, what you're describing is the normal usage of water out of the system. That wasn't the question. The question is why under normal operating conditions, if I've added a second tank (not a pressure tank, just a tank), in series with the first as I described, why would that tank not be full of water when the power goes out? Answer?
When the power goes out, nothing will change until someone draws water. The 50 gallon tank (not a pressure type tank with air that you keep harping about), plumbed in series with his existing pressure tank is still full of water. That's what I described in my first post and you still don't get it.

Same thing happens with the second storage tank in series with the first. It doesn't run out of water either. Whatever water is left in the pressure tank when the power goes out, will flow through the second added tank and out any faucet you open. When the pressure drops to close to zero, the flow will stop. The extra tank, just like thw WH, will still be full of water. Got it now?

Same thing happens with the second storage tank. The dip tube is irrelevant. How is the water from that 50 gal extra tank going to flow to the kitchen/bath faucets? It can't one the pressure is gone from the existing pressure tank. It remains full. The water will flow out if you open a drain valve and let it flow into a bucket for use.

How the hell is it going to drain? The only possible way is by gravity and in every house I've lived in the pressure tank, pump, whatever was lower than the faucets, toilets, etc. Is it possible to have that, sure. Is it typical, what you seem in almost all cases? No. Good grief.

Confused as ever I see.
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On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:42:39 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

One more try.
Perhaps if you would concentrate one what is being posted instead of insults you might get the point.
Your lash up will work IF HYOU PLUMB YOUR PRECIOUS STORAGE TANK WITH WATER COMING IN THROUGH A DIP TUBE.
Why would one plumbed the normal way empty? Because as the pressure drops in the pressure tank (regular one), the weight of water in the storage one will force water out of it.
There is a problem with that last paragraph but I'll leave you to find it.
Harry K
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On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:59:01 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

IF YOU could concentrate on the posts, I wouldn't be using the insults. But when I post a new paragraph specifically about "prssure tanks" and then you come back with "that only works if it's a pressure tank, not if it's a storage tank", what do you expect? And then you claim I switched to pressure tanks, which is either incorrect or an outright lie. I only addressed pressure tanks because YOU brought it up. And you started it with accusing Stormin and me of not understanding hydraulics. So, sorry, but I can only stand so much.

BS. It will work exactly as I described. One more time, you put a simple storage tank inline, after his existing pressure tank. You plumb it so water goes in the bottom, out the top. It will fill entirely with water. That water will still be there when the power goes off, it does not magically disappear. No dip tube is required.
Again, you refuse to address the instructables I have given you. Let's say he has a 6 ft section of 1" pipe right after the pressure tank. Under normal opertaion, it's full of water now. Replace it with a 2" diameter section. Is it still full? Replace it with a 30" diameter, is it still full? Now stand it on end, so water comes in the botton, goes out the top. Is it still full? Does water somehow now magically disappear? There is your tank full of water. I detailed that out 3 times now, yet you still refuse to address it, answer those questions that show how it works.

Force water out of what exactly and to where? The standing column of water in the additional tank exerts the same PSI at the bottom of the tank as the standing column of water in his existing piping that supplies the house. Let's say he has a 1" feed from the pump and pressure tank on the floor going up from the floor, upstairs to feed the house. When the power goes out, he opens a cold faucet in a sink and lets it run until no more water comes out. At that point, whatever pressure is at the bottom of the pressure tank is due to the standing column of water. It depends only on it's height, not it's volume. Whatever pressure is there, is due to the total height, all the way to the second floor, wherever the heighest water point is in the system. Put a tank inline with that, let the power go out. Measure the pressure at the bottom of the pressure tank and it will be exactly the same. It's the max height of the water, not the volume.
And you said Stormin and I don't understand hydraulics? Good grief.

I found the problem. You're still confused.
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On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:51:31 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:

Yes, and will drain with the regular tank. Fill through a dip tube from the tope and it will not drain. That is the point you keep overlooking over how many posts now?

After I pointed out the problem with stagnant water and tanks not draining then you shifted to that version - solved the stagnant water part but still didn't solve the 'drain at same time' problem.

I already addressed it several times but you were so busy with insults you didn't think about it.
You then went on for post after post inserting special asir valves, tanks of compressed air with special valves, etc. IOW you do see the 'draining" and "stagnant water" problems.

0ut of your "storage" tank of and into the pipe draining the regular tank of course. Remember you are now talking about one in series but filling/emptying through the bottom.

Exactly. Which is why it is emptying at the same rate the regular one does.

Correct but don't forget your pressure tank, storage tank and all piping is interconnected. One rule of hydraulics is that in all closed systems, the pressure is equal everywhere (measured at the same height of course as in your example).

The Storage tank (again one that has empty/fill at bottom) will not drain out 'at the same rate' or even as far, it will only drain until the vacuum formed in the top of the tank equals the atmospheric pressure. Back to stagnant water again.
Storage tank 'in series' with fill bottom/exit top is interconnected and will drain at same rate.
Now go back to 'fill through dip tube' you now have your storage tank in series, water being exchanged and it WILL NOT DRAIN until you want it to, i.e., you have the system you were after.
You have been fiddling with your first version since the start trying to solve the problems I brought up but didn't spot the error I was making (shown above) about the tank draining.
"Ill install air valve, tank of compressed air, change to fill at bottom and exit at top, etc" Then brought up the hot water tank and keep somehow overlooking, ignoring or failing to understand why that would make the whole thing work simply.
Harry K
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On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:27:51 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:

Good grief. I haven't overlooked it. You just don't understand basic physics. I explained exactly what happens when you add a storage tank as I described. One more time. You add a regular tank, after the pressure tank. It's plumbed so the water enters from the bottom, feeds to the house from the top. Under nornal operation it's always full of water. Water constantly flows through it just as if it were a pipe.
When the power goes out, at first, nothing happens. Then as you use water, it functions exactly as before, with water flowing from the pressure tank, through the storage tank, until the pressure is so low, close to zero, so that the water no longer can flow. At that point there is still a small amount of water left in the original pressure tank, just like before, and THE STORAGE TANK IS STILL FULL.
If you disagree, instead of just saying it ain't so, why can't you tell us where the missing water goes? I have a 30 gal pressure tank. I want extra water storage, so I add an 80 gal tank as I described. The system is in normal operation, the 80 gallon tank is full, the pressure tank is cycling normally. When the power goes out, the pressure tank has 15 gallons in it. So, now we have 80 gallons in the storage tank, 15 in the pressure tank. Where oh where does the 80 gallons magically disappear to?

Now you're lying. Here, from my first post in the thread, *before* you even made a post:
"Or add that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons, X being the size of the additional tank into buckets. I guess you could also plumb in a tank of compressed air that you could activate, that would then provide pressure, so that you could use the full 80 or whatever gallons. "
So, I never said to use a pressure tank. And if you have a clue about pressure tanks, you'd know that it can't be a pressure tank from the above, because I said "it's always full of water". A pressure tank, at least a functioning one, is never full of water, it always has some air in it. And while I thought that the intent being that it should always be full of water, everyone would understand that you of course plumb it with the water coming in the bottom, exiting the top. Not hard to grasp.
And once again, you refuse to address the examples I'm giving that show you're wrong. You didn't address the clear example where I morphed an existing system with a 1" diameter pipe into a tank that's 30" in diameter. The pipe is full. The tank is full. You're wrong and that's why you won't even address it.

Liar. Everyone can see that you haven't addressed the example where I morphed a 1" vertical supply pipe, step by step, into a tank. Pipe stays full. Tank stays full.

You're such a liar. I just re-posted for you my very first post on the subject. It described the inline system, with no possibility of stagnation, including the possibility of adding an air tank. BTW, Claire suggested exactly the same inline tank too.

How the hell does water flow back the other way? Water under normal operation flows from the pump to the pressure tank, throught the inline tank full of water, and out a faucet in the kitchen. It's just like it flows through a 1" vertical supply line, with no storage tank. When power goes out, the pump no longer supplies water. At that point, if you open a faucet, water continues to flow from the pressure tank, through the full storage tank of water, out the faucet. Eventually, the pressure drops close to zero and the flow stops. At that point the pressure tank is mostly empty, the storage tank is full. How in the hell would the flow suddenly reverse? And where would say 80 gallons of water from the storage tank go? Good grief.

It would help stop confusion if you could learn to stop using terms like "regular one". If by regular one, you mean the pressure tank, you're wrong. The pressure tank has air in it that expands as water leaves. The storage tank, plumbed inline is no different than a 1" piece of vertical pipe. It stays full. Which of course is why you won't or can't address the example I gave of morphing a 1" vertical pipe that already supplies the house from the existing pressure tank into a 30" one. Does the 1" pipe empty when power goes out? no. Would a 2" pipe empty? no So why would the 30" pipe, ie a tank as I described empty?
It's actually kind of funny. At one point you were claiming that a storage tank would not drain through a drain valve if it were opened at the bottom. Now you're arguing that a storage tank magically drains on it's own, to parts unknown.

Thanks for repeating what I just told you.

It's not draining out. Water from the pressure tank is pushing water into the bottom of the inline storage tank and out the top. Just like if it were a 1" pipe, 2" pipe, 20" pipe, 30" pipe. Bingo, we have a storage tank! And stagnant water? Water is flowing through the inline tank all the time. Good grief, you're confused.

You're such a liar. My description was clear and consistent. My first post, I re-posted. And WTF? Your error about the tank draining? You're still saying the added storage tank drains. Good grief.

Just show us where I posted what you quoted above. I never said that strung together sentence. I never said to "change to fill at bottom". You're such a liar. I did say he could optionally use a tank of compressed air if he wants to get the water out of the faucets during an outage, instead of just drawing it in a bucket from the tank. And I said that in my very first post, before you even posted a word, idiot.

I brought up the water heater because it's a simple example of a tank that stays full of water when the power goes off. And it has nothing to do with the dip tube. You're focusing on the nits and ignoring the fundementals.
I could replumb a water heater so that instead of using the cold water connection on the top, I feed cold water into it at the bottom. If the power goes out, if I open a hot water tap, water will flow until the pressure reaches near zero. At that point the water heater will still be full of water. Capiche?
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On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:01:54 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:

See my reply to Trader - I finally "got" it.
Of course we use compressed air to empty out that 1/4 mile line. What do you think the air in our pressure tanks is any way?
Harry K
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On 11/29/2014 11:38 AM, Harry K wrote:

in our pressure tanks is any way?

From what I know of well systems, the air in the pressure tank is captive. It won't do a bit of good, to clear the 1/4 mile line between your places.
When I winterize RV for the church's camp ground, I use a portable electric compressor, and a blow out adapter or two.
How about yourself, and the 1/4 mile line?
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:45:50 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And just why would that be? You do realize that pumps kick on when the pressure drops to cut-in? No, it won't clear the line on one cycle but it will with repeated ones. Sheesh!
Harry K
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On 11/30/2014 11:06 AM, Harry K wrote:

1) you use compressed air to clear the water line 2) The compressed air is in the holding tank 3) The demand pump clears the water line
I hope the gentle readers on this list can make more sense than what I'm seeing. I'm getting dizzy, reading your posts.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:51:57 PM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:

One last try. One of us needs to use the 1/4 mile interconnect but must flush the line first.
Walk out and turn on any outside faucet and let it run. What happens? Answer, the line gets flushed and there is no need to use any other source of compressed air.
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On 11/28/2014 10:00 AM, HerHusband wrote:

You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would mean it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.
When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5 gallon plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping trips. Took to neighbors and filled them.
Your daughter can fill a kitchen pot from the water can and dump into the toilet tank. Sure, takes more time.
If the road to a neighbor with power is open, make a deal with them to fill you cans. You do have a pickup, don't you?
If the water is stored in the dark and kept cool, it should last as long as the winter storms are possible. then dump and refill at the beginning of next winter.
Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994. More than a week.
Paul, in Central Oregon
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