Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

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Pop wrote:

The only bull here is yours in trying to hack things out of context. Try again and this time leave everything in place and in context.
Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:

Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of having both sides connected at the same time.

Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors.

seems to go right over their heads.

situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not available and a generator must be brought in to provide power then I would consider that to be an emergency requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but not an emergency.

And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a portable generator that gets connected through a transfer switch to the house during extended power outages. When line power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent installation, but code still requires it be connected via a transfer switch.
If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it during power outages then that person should have the means to connect it properly and safely..
Waldo

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Waldo wrote:

Or don't connect it at all... You can do pretty well with a generator and a couple of long extension cords.
Bob
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Waldo wrote:

Well, that is what they attempt to do. They do however fail on occasion.

Your generator hookup is a permanent installation, even if the generator itself is not part of the installation. Pretty common to see at telecom sites as well, permanently installed transfer switchgear and a big ol' IEC style plug on the outside of the building (or ped) to connect a towable generator to when needed. Allows a smaller fleet of towable generators to service multiple sites and also allows central storage and servicing of those generators.
Also quite common to see a small Honda generator chained to the base of a pole and powering a cable TV power supply. No transfer switch here, just switch of the main disconnect and wire in the extension cord.

An isolating transfer switch would be one type. Also have less common make before break paralleling transfer switches.

Everything is relative, but in an ice storm where there is a real risk of damage from frozen pipes in a short time period that would meet my definition of emergency. If there are children or elderly who are not as able to handle the cold as a typical healthy adult that would be an emergency. In hot weather were some people would be at risk without A/C.

You have a permanent installation of generator connection facilities. The generator itself need not be a part of that installation.

And that means can include the knowledge of how to make a safe temporary connection for the one or two times a year they may need it. If it's a fairly frequent occurrence then it justifies at least a basic transfer switch installation, once or twice a year does not if the user is competent.
Pete C.
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I found the guys really helpful> www.lionsun.co.uk when I called them up they explained it all to me. Actually it is very simple..
They helped me.
Pete C. wrote:

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IMHO, many of the safety regulations of the NEC are not directed at the "competent" person, but at the incompetent people that follow afterwards

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If there was no NEC regulations there may not be any "competent" people or better yet no definition of "competent". Rules are just a collection of corrections to previous mistakes.
message

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You can get along without a transfer switch as long as you never make a mistake, but it only takes one mistake to cause you to wish you had installed one.
I ran a home gen for several years without a transfer switch - I had the gen cord (with male plug) wired into a spare two-pole breaker and an air-conditioner type disconnect in the garage in line with the cord so that the possibility of a 'suicide cable' configuration was diminished. I knew what to throw/connect/disconnect when and everything worked fine... I was confident with my knowledge and ability.
Well, during one power outage I did something in the wrong sequence and all it did was trip the breaker on my generator, but it scared me *big time*. I immediately bought a new one of these (http://www.connecticut-electric.com/10-12K1.asp ) on eBay for about half of the store price, selected the circuits to use with it and installed it properly. Now, even my wife can get the backup power going (well, almost): She fried the garage door opener and several other items by not having the twist-lock plug shoved in completely into the generator - it was thus connected without a neutral and several items in my house took offense to this configuration.
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And that inexpensive little link bar is too much trouble to install?

FYI, tags alone don't meet the OSHA requirements for tag-out/lock-out in residential setting. Tag-out only works if all employees/personel that have access to the area receive basic tag-out training. Otherwise, locks are required.
But that's OSHA. I'm sure you'll argue that such rules don't apply in an emergency (except to the lineman that forgets a step in their procedure and ends up dead). BTW, is powering up your home to save $200 of beef in the freezer, or watch TV an 'emergency'??
daestrom
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daestrom wrote:

Depends, as long as you have adequate panel space then it's not too much trouble. The mechanical link bar kits require the breakers to be positioned opposite each other so you can't use the standard top center main breaker position. Since the link bar requires one of the breakers to be off at all times that means you have to have a dedicated back feed circuit.
Ultimately you need four panel spaces for the two breakers and need to install a dedicated back feed outlet. Still a cheaper and easier option than any of the standalone transfer switches. Likely something I will do when I replace the POS Stab-Loc panel in my current house with a decent 40 space QO panel.

Actually OSHA rules don't apply at all in a non-commercial setting. OSHA only applies to commercial contractors working in a residential setting, not to homeowners.

Depends on the situation and it's not as clear cut as you might think.
In most circumstances it probably doesn't qualify as an actual emergency, more of an urgent property protection situation. However consider the case where you live in the boonies and are getting the 100yr blizzard of doom. In that situation where you may well not be able to reach a store for days or weeks, preserving your food supplies and watching TV for news reports and info would certainly qualify as an emergency.
Pete C.
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Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do kill linemen.
http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vhouse/articles/generat.htm http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm
A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard.
You are a hazard.
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JoeSixPack wrote:

There is absolutely no misinformation in what I posted. The links you list border on misinformation in their omissions.
I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.
As I've noted, every case I've seen where a lineman was "killed by an improperly connected generator" has clearly shown that the lineman in question did not follow proper procedures. If you have references to a case where a lineman followed procedures and was killed by an "improperly connected generator" I'd like to see it.
I bet you also believe you can't put metal in a microwave oven...
Pete C.
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What color is the sun in your little world there?
Do you not know that when you put 240V back through the transformer, it energizes the lines to 7200 Volts? Do you know how little current it takes to kill someone at such a voltage? Your comments are stupid and irresponsible. You just have to admit you're wrong sometimes, and there's no amount of explaining that can save you.
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JoeSixPack wrote:

I'm well aware of how a transformer works, in fact I was the only one to pass my power distribution course with a perfect score (all weekly tests, mid term and final 100% correct).
My comments are 100% factually accurate. Please provide specific examples with references to what you think I am incorrect on.
The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also not follow established procedures for his work.
Pete C.
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wrote:

The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4 transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street, very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the other streets.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.
The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling factor.
Pete C.
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snipped-for-privacy@snet.net says...

Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that might not be good enough), would you really want to risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has died, and the utility and that court are looking to punish someone?
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Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:

Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...
Pete C.
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Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may not win this argument?
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JoeSixPack wrote:

The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back feeding for a lineman to be killed.
Pete C.
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