Asphalt shingle roofing question: How exposed is an "exposed nail?"

[Pop]

Two to 2.5 cents inine from this peanut gallery:

: scribbled this interesting note: : : >:Dan, you're right. Also, you shouldn't be able to see heads of fasteners : >:PERIOD. For sure! From ANY direction. I can't find it, but there is a spec on how/where nails go in shingles. Anyone know it?

: >

: >Does that mean from overhead or from an angle? The PM contends that if : >you can only see it from the side, it's not of consequence. .... asked I will tell you they will leak. : : On the other hand, if you have a seven year labor warranty, what the : hell? If you get any leak whatsoever, this fellow is liable for it. Umm, he doesn't sound like the kind to rush right over to take care of any future problems; he can't do it right the first time, has time to do it over partially now, but I wouldn't bet on later on. He just doesn't want to bother.

: Any problems ought to show themselves in that seven year time frame. : Ask him if he will be liable for consequential damage like interior : painting? I suspect this type of person wouldn't feel liable for any consequential damage at all, including the inside attic debris, etc.. :... Somewhere I saw a comment that legal action wouldn't be worth it, but I disagree. If he won't make it right before he calls it finished, I'd say take him to small claims court, depending on the max you can sue for there. Around here it's $6,000, and that

6k would not only pay for the inspection the OP discussed, plus the repairs, but maybe even a beer or two afterwards. It's also a lot easier to win in small claims courts as a generaal rule. If the contractor values his business at all, he'll stop before he has to get to court and take care of things. He won't like the bad PR that could scrape up for him. OTOH, you can't be an a_hole about it, either. If it hasn't already been done, someone should get up there with a camera and take pictures of the problems, with at least one of the pictures including that day's newspaper for "proof" of the date the pictures were taken. That would be usable in most small claims courts; they like pictures.

: But be firm. There are likely other problems you can't see right now : that will turn up over time. Keep his phone number handy...you will be : needing it later... .... or sooner. . If all this info is correct, that guy's doing the same stuff to other people too, so he should be stopped. Gives the whole industry a black eye. : : : -- : John Willis : [e-mail] : (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

HTH,

Pop

[Dan_Musicant]

: :"Dan_Musicant" wrote : :> Does that mean from overhead or from an angle? The PM contends that if :> you can only see it from the side, it's not of consequence. : :Dan, : :This person is yanking your chain. You're not supposed to see the fasteners :from any angle. I suggest you read the warranty, posted on Elk's site. Your :warranty is void, when not installed correctly. You can read the :installation procedures, also on their site. In bold letters, it states: :"Always nail or staple through the fastener line". It also states exposure :is 5-5/8", with the nail line at 6-1/8".

Yes, the nail heads themselves are very nearly 3/8 inch in diameter. So assuming the nail line and cutouts of the shingles are accurately placed and that the nail is driven dead on the nail line, there would be a tad (1/64th inch, approximately) over 7/16 from the bottom of the overlieing shingle to the bottom edge of the nailhead. Whether or not you can see that nail head depends a lot on how raised the overlieing shingle edge is. All this varies from shingle to shingle. I can try again, but yesterday the project manager didn't want to replace a shingle on the basis of whether a nail in it was visible. He said it had to be visible from straight over it, looking down at a 90 degree angle from the shingle. : :There's not a lot of margin for error, when installing these shingles.

Also, a lot of the nails are at a fairly (obviously) pronounced angle, because the nailer was in such a hurry he couldn't be bothered to adjust his position when nailing the entire shingle. Many are not flush, either. Some stand up, I'd say, a good 3/16". : :This is why I would also be concerned of placement of fasteners, with a :proper distance from the seams.

That's another area where I think they are guilty. They fired away a lot of times, putting easily double the number of fasteners in a shingle as if they could correct their errors by firing in more nails.

I'm concerned about another thing right now. The project manager gave his two men instructions early yesterday afternoon to remove all the shingles from the north dormer, which is the 20' x 25' less than 3/12 sloped roof that requires double underlayment. They left the current layer of 30 lb. underlayment. I can understand doing that overnight to leave protection against any possible precipitation (although there's none in the forecast). However, I doubt that this existing layer of underlayment should be left on there before they proceed. The manufacturer's specification is for overlapping double underlayment, not one layer on top of another. Here's what it says on the shingle package:

" UNDERLAYMENT

Apply underlayment (Non-Perforated No. 15 or 30 asphalt saturated felt). Cover drip edge at eaves only. ICBO requires No. 30 underlayment for re-roofing over wood shingles.

For low slope (2/12 up to 4/12), completely cover the deck with two plies of underlayment overlapping a minimum of 19". Begin by fastening a

19" wide strip of underlayment placed along the eaves. Place a full 36" wide sheet over the starter, horizontally placed along the eaves and completely overlapping the starter strip."

Maybe I should print that out and hand that to them when they come in the morning, although it wouldn't surprise me if the person in charge wouldn't comprehend it. If they try to put a second layer of underlayment over the existing one, it won't be to specification and the lower layer will have hundreds and hundreds of nail holes in it to boot.

[Dan_Musicant]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:21:15 GMT, Dan_Musicant wrote:

: :I'm concerned about another thing right now. The project manager gave :his two men instructions early yesterday afternoon to remove all the :shingles from the north dormer, which is the 20' x 25' less than 3/12 :sloped roof that requires double underlayment. They left the current :layer of 30 lb. underlayment. I can understand doing that overnight to :leave protection against any possible precipitation (although there's :none in the forecast). However, I doubt that this existing layer of :underlayment should be left on there before they proceed. The :manufacturer's specification is for overlapping double underlayment, not :one layer on top of another. Here's what it says on the shingle package: : :" UNDERLAYMENT : :Apply underlayment (Non-Perforated No. 15 or 30 asphalt saturated felt). :Cover drip edge at eaves only. ICBO requires No. 30 underlayment for :re-roofing over wood shingles. : :For low slope (2/12 up to 4/12), completely cover the deck with two :plies of underlayment overlapping a minimum of 19". Begin by fastening a :19" wide strip of underlayment placed along the eaves. Place a full 36" :wide sheet over the starter, horizontally placed along the eaves and :completely overlapping the starter strip." : They left 5 rolls of 216 square foot 30 lb. underlayment beside the house, so maybe they plan on tearing off down to the CDX and applying two layers per manufacturer's specifications (19" overlapping). I guess it will come down Monday.