Asphalt shingle roofing question: How exposed is an "exposed nail?"

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TimL wrote:

Cutting up a tabbed shingle to use for ridges? Little corners sticking up every which way? A moron wouldn't request that. Condo board did the deal before I arrived. Put a new roof on an old, rotten one without making any repairs.
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Comments inserted
"Dan_Musicant" wrote

Dan, the brand of cap won't sabotage the perfomance of the covering. I'm just anal about aesthetics, some people probably wouldn't notice, even if/when it was pointed out. I probably notice this practice, because I'm in the business, and it rubs me the wrong way.

I was thinking maybe they did nail on-line, but used the nail line, to align the bottom of the shingle? I believe Elk has a 5-5/8" exposure (you would have to check me on this). The bottom of each shingle should be aligned to the "cut out" of the previous shingle. But then again, since I've seen off-line nailing by the hundreds, nothing surprises me.
Also, not just online nailing is important, but placement of the nails. Example- 1" in from each end, and 1 foot in from each end (or manufacturer recommendations). You don't want nails any closer than 2" from butt end of shingles.

Being anal like I am, I probably would take a can of fluorescent spray paint and mark each bad shingle. That way I would know which ones they replaced, or should've replaced. I'm not suggesting you do this, but just something I would do.

Well, with as many goofs as you explained, I hardly believe for one minute, that they roof with integrity. No one should have that many mistakes on one roof. The damaged shingles needs replaced, nothing less would do, for a newly done job. I would not settle for sealant of any type. To replace a shingle, you need to pull the fasteners from the shingle/s above the bad one, plus the fasteners in the bad one.

I wouldn't waste my time, just have it done correctly.
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:Comments inserted : :"Dan_Musicant" wrote : :> They do have the cap, but I didn't see any going up the conveyor belt, :> although at the time I didn't know about them and wasn't looking for :> them. I read your post that mentioned the cap a day or two later and it :> didn't ring a bell, so I suspected that they'd cut for cap.: :Dan, the brand of cap won't sabotage the perfomance of the covering. I'm :just anal about aesthetics, some people probably wouldn't notice, even :if/when it was pointed out. I probably notice this practice, because I'm in :the business, and it rubs me the wrong way.
OK, then I probably won't bug them about that. However, I think they may have to replace the ridge cap in which event I may say something about the replacement cap and ask them if they will use z-ridge, or whatever it is that Elk Corp. supplies. Another poster in this thread, though, says z-ridge is a bitch for some reason. : :> I see that. I have a 3 tab shingle in the room with me and can see that :> the overlap is barely more than an inch. Not all the shingles look the :> same, by a long shot, but this one has a whitish line at about the :> midway point in the overlap, and I assume that's the nail line and I :> guess they should really be on that line, not so much as a 1/4" below it :> or the nail can be seen, at least from the side.: :I was thinking maybe they did nail on-line, but used the nail line, to align :the bottom of the shingle? I believe Elk has a 5-5/8" exposure (you would :have to check me on this). The bottom of each shingle should be aligned to :the "cut out" of the previous shingle. But then again, since I've seen :off-line nailing by the hundreds, nothing surprises me.
No, I think that mostly they nailed off line. I watched them nail some and they were too fast. They were putting in the nails almost 1/second. That's just too fast for accuracy. I could see that the variation was up to, maybe more than an inch in the vertical between some of the nails. That's way too lax, I can see now. I saw one where they put two nails less than an inch apart! The nailer must have thought that since he'd missed where he intended the first one to go, another might correct the error. Actually, I can see both!!! I don't think these guys quite know what they are doing, at least some of them. They were all Spanish speaking and most of them had almost no English. I could communicate fairly well with the crew chief, although his English was pretty chopped. The project manager, who came by every two days or so has better English. He's the guy who's coming tomorrow and I can only hope that he will see fit to really fix the errors.
I read the instructions on the Elk Corp. packaging today and see it says "under no conditions should the overhang at the rake or eaves exceed 3/4 inch." I see a lot of places where it's obviously more than an inch and some places where it's apparently as much as 1.75 inches, maybe more!
The packaging also says you have to use a different underlayment scheme if the rise/run is under 4/12. It says to double the layers and have a 19" overlap. I measured the r/r on my large north dormer (20' x 25') today and it's only 2.71/12! I'm almost positive they didn't do anything for the underlayment any different than the rest of the roof - 30 lb. felt, with minimal overlaps. That's the section of roof with far and away the most exposed nails (I counted 42 today), and I guess I should insist on a tearoff, adequate underlayment and a proper nailing of new shingles. : :Also, not just online nailing is important, but placement of the nails. :Example- 1" in from each end, and 1 foot in from each end (or manufacturer :recommendations). You don't want nails any closer than 2" from butt end of :shingles.
What do you mean by the last sentence? : : :> I'm wondering how I'll know if they did a kludge and reused the shingles :> with holes in them or replaced them with new shingles. I guess I could :> get up there on the roof and watch them like a hawk, but I was trying to :> avoid that scenario. I suppose I was engaging in a lot of wishful :> thinking when I put so much trust in these guys. This is my first :> contract in my life. I was hopeful but I'm taking my knocks now. I'll :> find out what they say this morning, the estimator (who I think is also :> one of the company owners, probably, or at least a higher up), and the :> project manager who I'm going to call in an hour or so.: :Being anal like I am, I probably would take a can of fluorescent spray paint :and mark each bad shingle. That way I would know which ones they replaced, :or should've replaced. I'm not suggesting you do this, but just something I :would do.
I don't know if I'll do that. I may do something, though, something to identify those shingles. : :> The estimator told me they roofed with integrity, did the job right. :> They appear to take a lot of pride in correcting mistakes, so maybe they :> will correct these. How do you correct an exposed nail? How many :> shingles do they have to pull and replace and how? How many in a given :> area before it makes more sense to pull the whole area and replace them :> all? Thanks for the help!: :Well, with as many goofs as you explained, I hardly believe for one minute, :that they roof with integrity. No one should have that many mistakes on one :roof. The damaged shingles needs replaced, nothing less would do, for a :newly done job. I would not settle for sealant of any type.
In closely inspecting the entire roof (I couldn't see the eaves very well, because I don't have an extension ladder) I spotted 2-3 nails that they covered with some kind of caulk and then spray painted. They were using a spray paint supplied by Elk that matches the shingle color (Shakewood). They used some of that spray on the caulk! I am going to tell them not to do any more of that. If they want to, I'll try to get the Elk rep over here and/or a professional inspector for a bona fide assessment and report on what's going on.
:To replace a :shingle, you need to pull the fasteners from the shingle/s above the bad :one, plus the fasteners in the bad one. : : :> PS I was wondering if there's any way to repair at least some of the :> exposed heads (maybe the ones down flush and barely showing). I'm :> probably naive, but I thought that maybe inserting a small rectangle :> (1.5" x 2") of thin stainless steel with sealant/adhesive under it over :> each exposed nail might make a permanent fix that would last decades. :> They could be sprayed with color matching paint. I know, it's probably a :> foolish dream.: :I wouldn't waste my time, just have it done correctly.
I was just thinking out loud. Sometimes I think "what will I do if I don't get my way"? Maybe I was too hopeful, too trusting with these people. Well, if they don't make any money, even if they lose money on my contract, they will only have themselves to blame and they should take it as a learning experience. They have to tighten up their training program and their oversight. Thanks, Josh.
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"Dan_Musicant" wrote

There's a couple of reasons I know of, why excessuve overhang is a concern. One is, the weight of the covering combined with heat, can cause the material to droop and crack. Another, which is the main concern in my area is, it provides high winds something to grab onto and start peeling the roof.
Had they used a high wind application, they would have ran a starter strip up the rakes with a 3/4" overhang. If they had a 7" starter, they should have chalked a line at 6-1/4", this provides the 3/4" overhang. Then they just cut back the shingles to the edge of the starter.

The butt ends, is where the seams of the shingles meet (butted together). On the shingle underneath the seams, no nail should be within 2 inches of that seam, or you probably will get a leak.

The remedy used, is unacceptable. It's really time to start playing hardball, you're just way too nice.
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:> In closely inspecting the entire roof (I couldn't see the eaves very :> well, because I don't have an extension ladder) I spotted 2-3 nails that :> they covered with some kind of caulk and then spray painted. They were :> using a spray paint supplied by Elk that matches the shingle color :> (Shakewood). They used some of that spray on the caulk! I am going to :> tell them not to do any more of that. If they want to, I'll try to get :> the Elk rep over here and/or a professional inspector for a bona fide :> assessment and report on what's going on.: :The remedy used, is unacceptable. It's really time to start playing :hardball, you're just way too nice.
A couple guys from the company just arrived who I don't recognize. The project manager said he was going to come today but he hasn't shown up yet. These guys came in a company pickup truck (not the usuall company roofing truck) and it has a bunch of Shakewood shingles thrown in the back (not in packages) and they'd gotten instructions to replace shingles. I met them on the roof and they just shook their heads. They couldn't believe how many bad shingles they were seeing. They found a couple that I hadn't seen right away. They've started replacing shingles but I told them not to do the north dormer, that I want to talk to the project manager and that I think the entire north dormer needs a tearoff. I'm seriously wondering if I shouldn't send these guys home and insist on an inspection first by the project manager and by a professional roofer from a different company. Meantime, they are replacing some of the shingles.
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scribbled this interesting note:

That was me.
First, Z-Ridge is a smaller shingle than any other factory supplied hip and ridge shingle that I've ever seen (they come four to the three foot shingle instead of three.) Secondly, it obviously has a different composition than standard Elk shingles. That composition makes the Z-Ridge shingles very brittle in cold weather. They are far more brittle than the standard Elk Prestique (or whatever flavor of Elk shingles you bought). Thirdly, when breaking them apart, that different composition makes them tend to tear easily. Fourthly, when installing them, which takes far longer because of the extra work involved, they sometimes fall apart along the lines where they are supposed to fold.
If you ever have a hail storm, your roof will likely do just fine, but the ridge shingles won't. They are that brittle.
Personally, I prefer to cut my own ridge shingles. Is it cheaper? Not really, once you take into consideration the extra time (that means labor cost) it takes to do it well. Quite frankly, I really prefer a triple ridge out of three tab shingles. It is more expensive but it looks better and holds up well. It would hold up far better than the Z-Ridge Elk sells.
As for your problem with the nails, you got a bad job. It was an inexperienced, poorly trained crew that was under-supervised. There is no excuse for exposed fasteners. If there is one then that is one too many. Actually you have more problem fasteners than that if they were truly that bad. See, water has a certain amount of cohesion; call it surface tension, and that causes the water to 'curl' around the bottom edge of the shingle. That water will get any nails that are too low, yet under the shingle above that one, wet. Over time even those unexposed nails can become leaks. Especially where the pitch is less than optimum.
It was the luck of the draw. You got the less experienced sub. I hope the contractor makes this right, but you may have small problems that show up from time to time, for years to come.
-- John Willis snipped-for-privacy@airmail.net (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
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On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:20:46 -0600, John Willis
:scribbled this interesting note: : :>:Dan, the brand of cap won't sabotage the perfomance of the covering. I'm :>:just anal about aesthetics, some people probably wouldn't notice, even :>:if/when it was pointed out. I probably notice this practice, because I'm in :>:the business, and it rubs me the wrong way.:> :>OK, then I probably won't bug them about that. However, I think they may :>have to replace the ridge cap in which event I may say something about :>the replacement cap and ask them if they will use z-ridge, or whatever :>it is that Elk Corp. supplies. Another poster in this thread, though, :>says z-ridge is a bitch for some reason.: :That was me. : :First, Z-Ridge is a smaller shingle than any other factory supplied :hip and ridge shingle that I've ever seen (they come four to the three :foot shingle instead of three.) Secondly, it obviously has a different :composition than standard Elk shingles. That composition makes the :Z-Ridge shingles very brittle in cold weather. They are far more :brittle than the standard Elk Prestique (or whatever flavor of Elk :shingles you bought). Thirdly, when breaking them apart, that :different composition makes them tend to tear easily. Fourthly, when :installing them, which takes far longer because of the extra work :involved, they sometimes fall apart along the lines where they are :supposed to fold.
They installed a ridge vent, something I didn't mention. Maybe everyone assumed that. I don't know if that's a factor. The shingles they used were Prestique Plus High Definition:
http://www.elkcorp.com/homeowners/products/shingles_prestique_phd.cfm
The weather around here doesn't get all that cold. Over a 50 year period it probably won't get colder than 25 F.
: :If you ever have a hail storm, your roof will likely do just fine, but :the ridge shingles won't. They are that brittle.
We get hail, not often big hail. The biggest I've seen is maybe 1/2 inch if that, I guess, maybe 1/4 inch. : :Personally, I prefer to cut my own ridge shingles. Is it cheaper? Not :really, once you take into consideration the extra time (that means :labor cost) it takes to do it well. Quite frankly, I really prefer a :triple ridge out of three tab shingles. It is more expensive but it :looks better and holds up well. It would hold up far better than the :Z-Ridge Elk sells.
I don't think I'll mention the ridge shingles, then. Thanks! : :As for your problem with the nails, you got a bad job. It was an :inexperienced, poorly trained crew that was under-supervised. There is :no excuse for exposed fasteners. If there is one then that is one too :many. Actually you have more problem fasteners than that if they were :truly that bad. See, water has a certain amount of cohesion; call it :surface tension, and that causes the water to 'curl' around the bottom :edge of the shingle. That water will get any nails that are too low, :yet under the shingle above that one, wet. Over time even those :unexposed nails can become leaks. Especially where the pitch is less :than optimum. : :It was the luck of the draw. You got the less experienced sub. I hope :the contractor makes this right, but you may have small problems that :show up from time to time, for years to come.
Luck of the draw is right, I guess. The estimator called me 4 days before the job was to start and told me when the crew would arrive and told me the name of the project manager and volunteered that he was very good. But when the day of the job came, it turned out to be a different project manager. I asked the estimator why this was and he said that there was a last minute problem - "a wedding" and the first guy couldn't make it. He assured me that the replacement guy was also good. When the project manager got here, he was reading the bid as we spoke. He told me he'd just been given the job that morning and that he hadn't had time to read the bid. I guess maybe I was unlucky. I suppose the crew chief was as responsible for the mistakes as the project manager, probably more so because he was the guy who was there the whole time. The project manager only came by every other day or so and he didn't inspect anything. He'd converse with the crew chief. I suppose it was the crew chief's job to make sure people were doing what was required. A day or two into the job I saw him treating his injured index finger. I looked at the top portion of the finger and saw a red patch of about a square centimeter of skin missing, and of course the finger was quite dirty. He was about to put a bandaid on it. I implored him to come in the house and wash it and remarked that it must be quite painful. He rinsed it at my bathroom sink and put a bandaid on it. He'd hit it with a hammer, I believe. Next morning I asked him about it asked if it might be broken. He said "almost!" with a smile, and he clearly meant it. He was in obvious pain for another day or two at least. I guess the job got out of hand.
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clipped

The company got a big commercial job and didn't want their worst crew doing it :o) What did the job cost you? High bid? Low bid?
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:clipped :> :It was the luck of the draw. You got the less experienced sub. I hope :> :the contractor makes this right, but you may have small problems that :> :show up from time to time, for years to come. :> :> Luck of the draw is right, I guess. The estimator called me 4 days :> before the job was to start and told me when the crew would arrive and :> told me the name of the project manager and volunteered that he was very :> good. But when the day of the job came, it turned out to be a different :> project manager. I asked the estimator why this was and he said that :> there was a last minute problem - "a wedding" and the first guy couldn't: :The company got a big commercial job and didn't want their worst crew :doing it :o) What did the job cost you? High bid? Low bid?
I got 4 bids:
Company 1: $18,500 + time and materials to repair the rather extensive dry rot damage. Time = $85/man/hour
Company 2: $16,200 + T&M etc. Time = $65/man/hour
Company 3: $16,500 + T&M etc. Time = $85/hour. Usually two men, so presumably cheaper for T&M, however this guy only wanted to apply 15lb paper, not the 30lb the other guys bid and also he didn't want to tear out the bottom 8 inches of stucco for flashing and restucco, present in bid 1 & 2. This guy is a small independent guy who oversees a working crew of maybe 4 guys.
Company 4: $19,500 and I need to get somebody else to do the T&M stuff.
I went with Company 2 for a few reasons. Not just the low bid, which it was, but the estimator (who is the company owner, I'm told) had some ideas for fixing some problems that the other guys didn't. They didn't seem to know what to do about some sagging beams that needed knee braces. This guy had a plan and it made sense, and indeed it worked out pretty well. He also had a cost effective plan to repair the gable rafter tails, which were badly dryrotted in 3 cases. The other bidders wanted to replace the entire gable rafters, a much more expensive means of fixing the problem.
Upshot of this at the present hour is that the project manager refused to tear off the ~500 square foot north dormer, which is < 3/12 sloped and requires double underlayment according to the manufacturer's spec. However, he had a change of heart and called me back a couple of hours later and said they would do the tearoff and double underlayment and all new shingling on that section of roof. I doubt I will ever feel as good about this as I did last week at this time. My confidence is shaken what with all the exposed nails, however I guess I'll feel better than I have the last day or so.
The project manager tells me that he has about 5-6 crews working under him, and he visits each site daily to check things out. He's hispanic and he says the other PM is Korean. The company owner (who was my estimator) has a hand in some projects, was his intimation.
Thanks to all for the moral support and information.
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FWIW - the instructions for Prestique Plus seem to have changed and perhaps the product itself has changed. When our roof was done, they specifically stated 6 nails per shingle. Now they say six nails if slope exceeds 21/12. The website is now organized by state so I don't know how they differ by area.
Their website: http://www.elkcorp.com/homeowners/products/applicationspec.cfm
"All warranties are contingent upon the correct installation as shown in the instructions."
"For a Limited Wind Warranty, all Prestique and Raised ProfileTM shingles must be applied with 4 properly placed fasteners, or in the case of mansard applications, 6 properly placed fasteners per shingle."
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:FWIW - the instructions for Prestique Plus seem to have changed and :perhaps the product itself has changed. When our roof was done, they :specifically stated 6 nails per shingle. Now they say six nails if :slope exceeds 21/12. The website is now organized by state so I don't :know how they differ by area. : :Their website: :http://www.elkcorp.com/homeowners/products/applicationspec.cfm : :"All warranties are contingent upon the correct installation as shown in :the instructions." : :"For a Limited Wind Warranty, all Prestique and Raised ProfileTM :shingles must be applied with 4 properly placed fasteners, or in :the case of mansard applications, 6 properly placed fasteners :per shingle."
I watched them nail some of the shingles and I think they may have been hitting them with more than 4 nails, maybe 6, but they were nailing way too fast. They would pull the trigger just as the nailer hit the shingle, bam bam bam bam. They made no effort to place the nailer on the shingle and check to see if it was online before pulling the trigger. That's definitely true for at least some of the nailing because I witnessed it. Also, the results speak for themselves.
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I would suggest contacting the shingle manufacturer and request an on site manufacturer's rep. The issue may be able to be handled by phone, but you may be headed for problems with the roofer and having the rep on site would add much to the total conversation.
(top posted for your convenience) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) snipped-for-privacy@7cox.net

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Roofers often hire inexperienced help as "nailers". You sure had some poor nailers on your job. You should see no nails except at the very end of the top cap. There is probably a lot more wrong with your job. Better have it inspected by a professional.
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:Roofers often hire inexperienced help as "nailers". You sure had some :poor nailers on your job. You should see no nails except at the very :end of the top cap. There is probably a lot more wrong with your job. :Better have it inspected by a professional.
Thanks, I was thinking the same thing today about having inspected by a professional. I was wondering just who, though.
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The project manager came by today an hour after he sent out a couple of guys with some shingles, who repeatedly shook their heads at what they saw and started replacing shingles. I stood on the roof and watched them work. I could see that they were replacing shingles. The process of removing nails from the shingle above has me worried. It seems like that will damage the roof. Also, nailing with a hammer in that circumstance looks iffy, like they can easily damage the shingles. They have to lift up an edge of a shingle to nail down the one below. I don't think the younger guy is very experienced and the older guy seems tired, way too tired to be a regular roofer.
The project manager comes by an hour later and declares that nails that you can see from the side are OK, particularly on a low sloped roof. I'd think it the other way around. He says they'll only replace shingles with nails you can spot from directly overhead. He also declared my north dormer 4/12 and therefore the single layer of underlayment is sufficient. I told him I measured it at 2.71/12, but he said he'd measured it 4/12. I insisted, so he got his guage and measured and he said it said it was 3/12. I said the instructions on the package clearly indicate that this requires double underlayment. He said it wouldn't leak and I said it would after a few years. He changes his tack and says the double underlayment in under 4/12 sloped roofs is only for when you use 15 lb. felt and they'd used 30 lb. felt. To this I said I'd reread the instructions. Here's the instructions verbatim:
" UNDERLAYMENT
Apply underlayment (Non-Perforated No. 15 or 30 asphalt saturated felt). Cover drip edge at eaves only. ICBO requires No. 30 underlayment for re-roofing over wood shingles.
For low slope (2/12 up to 4/12), completely cover the deck with two plies of underlayment overlapping a minimum of 19". Begin by fastening a 19" wide strip of underlayment placed along the eaves. Place a full 36" wide sheet over the starter, horizontally placed along the eaves and completely overlapping the starter strip."
To me, that means they didn't do the job right. Am I wrong?
I told him I had a mind to have the roof professionally assessed and he said go ahead. I called one of the estimators I had bid the roof and he called me back and said their fee is normally $300. He said that after they finish their repairs today if I still want to to call him back and he'd come out and do the inspection. Is $300 too steep for that? I can call some other local roofers.
The project manager said the crew chief that did the job hasn't gotten compaints before and he doesn't know why this job turned out so bad. He admits that when he came back to replace badly nailed shingles he seemed to have done "nothing." I'm afraid that I'm not going to wind up with a long-lasting roof job here. The roof looks a ton better than it did, all the sagging is gone, or almost all of it, but if I have leaks I'll be bummed. Their warranty is for 7 years. Of course, the shingles are 50 year. Maybe I should try to get the Elk rep over here.
Thanks for your help.
Dan
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I don't know whether the actual shingle has changed, but the sales pitch has. 10 year longer warranty (attractive to homeowner), fewer nails required (attractive to installer) - since all of the disasters, they are probably cranking out shingles as fast as they can. 50 year? The replacement value goes down with time, used to be on the website. Keep an eye by your downspouts after it rains and see if you see piles of granules.
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"Dan_Musicant" wrote

Dan, you're right. Also, you shouldn't be able to see heads of fasteners PERIOD.

I have been in court for testimony, on more than one occasion. First, before you have anyone come out, and assess the project, make double sure, they have qualifications which will stand up in court. Otherwise, you're throwing your money away, again.
Qualifications should include at least five years in the profession. Licensed, bonding (if required), and insurance. Any roofing certifications from manufacturers, such as Master installer etc. A list of projects and permits pulled within the last five years.
I can't speak for other areas of the country, or even in my state. For my area, an assessment would include detailed & typed documentations of the problems, with photos & labeling provided at a cost of $150.00. Actually going to court, providing sworn testimony, or questions/answer sessions for your attorney/others, or any other incurred time, would be additional, @ $60 per hour plus expenditures.
If you already have a family attorney, I would put in a call to them, for advice on exactly where to proceed before spending anymore.
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: :"Dan_Musicant" wrote :> To me, that means they didn't do the job right. Am I wrong?: :Dan, you're right. Also, you shouldn't be able to see heads of fasteners :PERIOD.
Does that mean from overhead or from an angle? The PM contends that if you can only see it from the side, it's not of consequence. : : :> I told him I had a mind to have the roof professionally assessed and he :> said go ahead. I called one of the estimators I had bid the roof and he :> called me back and said their fee is normally $300. He said that after :> they finish their repairs today if I still want to to call him back and :> he'd come out and do the inspection. Is $300 too steep for that? I can :> call some other local roofers.: :I have been in court for testimony, on more than one occasion. First, before :you have anyone come out, and assess the project, make double sure, they :have qualifications which will stand up in court. Otherwise, you're throwing :your money away, again. : :Qualifications should include at least five years in the profession. :Licensed, bonding (if required), and insurance. Any roofing certifications :from manufacturers, such as Master installer etc. A list of projects and :permits pulled within the last five years.
The guy I called is from a large reputable roofing company. I haven't checked them out in detail, but will before I hire them for an inspection. They were the high bidder on the job and their bid looked it - fancy packaging. They, too, were recommended in the local area Good Service Guide along with about 4 other roofers, including MY roofer! : :I can't speak for other areas of the country, or even in my state. For my :area, an assessment would include detailed & typed documentations of the :problems, with photos & labeling provided at a cost of $150.00. Actually :going to court, providing sworn testimony, or questions/answer sessions for :your attorney/others, or any other incurred time, would be additional, @ $60 :per hour plus expenditures.
Sounds expensive to take this to court. : :If you already have a family attorney, I would put in a call to them, for :advice on exactly where to proceed before spending anymore.
I don't have an attorney, but my sister (who lives close by) probably does or knows of them, or can get a good recommendation.
I don't know if he'll budge on the side-seen nail heads, but he changed his mind about the double underlayment on the low sloped dormer (about 500 square footer). He called and said they WOULD tear it off and apply two layers of underlayment (maybe a second on top of the first, I don't know) and put new shingles on top. Hopefully, this time they will nail them right.
I think it might still be a good idea to have that inspection. It is apt to turn up some other things they could fix before I pay them. So, even if the report doesn't figure in a court case, I can use the findings to get the roofer to fix problems. They seem to be willing to fix things when I make problems apparent to them. But I don't know much about roofing, so a professional inspection seems to me to be worth the money, even if it costs $300.
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scribbled this interesting note:

See my earlier post about the surface tension of water and how it will curl around the bottom edge of the shingle. On a 4/12 pitch, I've seen water marks on shingles up to an inch above the bottom edge of the shingle above. Those fasteners will get wet. Over time that moisture, with repeated freezings and thawings, will move those fasteners around a bit and eventually they will leak. Absolutely and with no other questions asked I will tell you they will leak.
On the other hand, if you have a seven year labor warranty, what the hell? If you get any leak whatsoever, this fellow is liable for it. Any problems ought to show themselves in that seven year time frame. Ask him if he will be liable for consequential damage like interior painting?
Right now the owner of the company is on the defensive and of course he will deny, deny, deny. That being said, it sounds like he might just be firing one of his crews because they screwed up this job so badly. You will find that you will get better service if you become his friend rather than his enemy. At this point he knows his crew messed up a simple job. He knows his good name is on the line. He should want to make it right, and so far as he is able at the moment, he seems to be doing that.
But be firm. There are likely other problems you can't see right now that will turn up over time. Keep his phone number handy...you will be needing it later...
-- John Willis snipped-for-privacy@airmail.net (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
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Two to 2.5 cents inine from this peanut gallery:
: (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
HTH,
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