this is what is known as 'mystique'; defining a good contractor as a bad contractor. when you see bad signs like no callbacks, it must mean he's good...
many businesses run on this premise. i dont do business with any of them if i can help it....
randy
snipped-for-privacy@nospam.tnx wrote on 04 Jan 2005:
Ken,
I agree with everything you've said except this (and I know you were being at least partly facetious here. But.....
You're asking the homeowner for advance payments and progress payments. If the check bounces, you lose nothing. If the contractor doesn't show up or does poor work, the homeowner is SOL.
It's amazing (at least in this state) how many contractors get a judgment against them and immediately go bankrupt. They reorganize as a new business and the homeowner is stuck with nothing.
It seems to me that licensing, insurance, workman's comp, and bonding protect your reputation and set you above the fly-by-night guys. In many states, this is getting easier to check on the Internet anyway.
I say contractor to mean the person I'm paying to do get the job done. Plumber, electrician, drywaller... whomever I hire. I do not mean Uncle Joe or the "I know a guy"... I mean the person who has the tools and knowhow and depends on doing this work as part of earning their livelyhood. I guess I should say "professional", but I've seen too many hacks to use that term much anymore.
So, if I hire you, what you would do is bring in the proper workers who would get my project done.
But why advertise if you aren't going to at least try and get the job? As a new homeowner the advertising is pretty much all I have to work with when trying to find someone to do a job.
It doesn't make sense to do jobs where you don't make any money. Obviously I wouldn't talk to you if I needed someone to hang and finish drywall in a
12'x15'room. The problem is finding someone who would.As I said, most of my calls are from the yellowpages, so this doesn't help me at all.
My posts here are based on experience. I don't have this attitude unless I'm actually discussing this topic with someone. You can't just one professional by the actions of another.
Most folks don't do it on purpose. They just don't understand what's involved. When I "talk down" a project, it's not to minimalize it, it's to summarize it.
But references and visits only prove that the CAN do good work. It doesn't mean that they WILL do good work. If only five of twenty projects are any good it gives the contract enough references and projects to visit. It doesn't help identify the other 75% of his work.
So you don't take deposits? You don't make contracts? These are why you'd trust me.
Asking for insurance, etc. proves two things... that you are serious about your job and that I won't get sued should you fall off my roof, etc.
I'm a learner. I like to watch to see how it's done. I do my best to stay out of the way and make sure that whoever is doing the work is happy. I offer drinks/lunch/etc. and do what I can to make them feel welcome.
Rescues are always more costly than the original job. Just price accordingly and make your money. If the DIYer doesn't like the cost he doesn't have to hire you.
Everthing here needs to be taken with a pound of salt. : )
I expect whomever I hire to have a reasonable education and have emphasis on what they do. It's great that you have a law degree, but don't expect me to cover it's costs when remodelling my basement.
I agree. If a person thinks that they need to tell their workers to "do a good job" they shouldn't have hired that person in the first place.
Unfortunately, it's not how "we" do business. You don't know how many times I had to tell my homebuilder that the trades screwed up on my house.
Not always true...
And with this attitude I hope they all drop you.
If you went into a grocery store and there were no prices on any of the items, would you bother putting anything in your cart? Would you spend you time chasing someone down to ask prices?
I don't expect contractors to have a "menu" of services. I don't expect contractors to tell DYIers how to do it themselves. I don't expect to get an exact quote for free. What I do expect is to be able to spend 10-15 minutes discussing what I want and ballpark amount that it may cost and not to pay for that. If it sounds good then I'll pay for your time and move forward from there.
I was being very facetious.
Doug, not true from my perspective. Even with progress payments, I'm 15 to 25% behind by the time any job is seriously underway.
So if a cheque bounces, I am out the labour and material the cheque was intended to cover, and out the labour and material we have put in between the time the cheque was received and the time the bank returned the cheque. Often that can equal fifty percent of the job.
Happily, while I've had a couple of "leapers", the homeowner has put them right immediately.
It *is* true that we can recover by putting a lien on the property and filing a claim through the courts. But that is one of those games that nobody ever wins. I've never heard of anyone actually getting payment in full PLUS legal costs.
As I said, I''ve never had the problem and I doubt I ever will.
I can't comment. I've never done it, I don't know of anyone who has. Most of us are incorporated and make a point of having few personal assets, because of the risk of liablility. This, on the advice (even insistence) of our lawyers and accountants.
No, your reputation is established by the work you do, the way you do it and the way you conduct yourself in all your affairs.
The rest is simply compliance with standards set by government. Scam artists can meet them; are foolish if they don't.
Ken
I think most good contractors or tradesmen are overbooked because they are good. The trick is to find someone who knows the reputations of the various tradesmen, and get him to make a recommendation; then call the tradesman and tell him how you got his name, and what you want done.
For a lot of trades, my son calls the realtor who sold him his home (and who wants to handle the next move, too) and asks for recommendations. This has worked really well for him. Apparently a good realtor realizes that some repairs or remodeling can boost the asking price of a home, and thus his commission, so they get a list of tradesmen who are good.
I visited my s> My husband has been remodeling our house himself for the past 5 years. On the
It hasn't been my experience. In the last year, we've remodeled a kitchen, done some electrical and installed central heat. Some of it we've done our selves, some we've contracted. Every one we've deal with has come exactly when they said they would and done what they said they would. The kitchen remodel was 29 days from demo (which we did) to finish including granite counter tops. Maybe we've just been lucky, but we did a lot of research before we got to the contractor stage.
With real estate values escalating and home equity loan rates still relatively low, more and more home owners are borrowing on the equity of their property and going ahead with remodeling. As a result, a good home remodeller can pick and choose his/her projects, so why would one pass up a large remodelling job to just finish up the remodelling you and your husband already started? That's just not sound business. I'd suggest you go to Lowe's or Home Depot and have them do the installation of your counters...and keep your fingers crossed that the guy they send out on your job is one of the good ones!
BTW, we are doing a kitchen remodelling starting in February. We contacted our contractor in August to tell him exactly what we wanted done. He got back to us within two weeks with the plans, helped us choose cabinets that fit our budget, recommended several sources for the appliances we need to purchase, and has kept in touch via fax and e-mail to keep us updated regarding his schedule so we can plan our own. Last night he called to see if he could come today with the hardwood floor contractor, and the two of them came within minutes of the scheduled appointment. We have used this contractor before. His work is excellent and he stayed within the time frame he promised. However, I doubt we'd get such attention if we were just asking him to finish off what we had already started rather than asking him to do the whole job. In that case he'd probably just fit us into the gaps between his larger, more profitable jobs, and I suspect this is what you're going to experience.
Liz
True, true.
But then, he shouldn't have committed to the appointment.
I have a contractor that does big jobs on my house, but also small jobs, where I actually arrange to be a 'filler'. (Such as - indoor small jobs for inclement weather in summer when he's doing a lot of roofing and framing...). That we're of very long acquaintance, and that he's trustworthy enough to leave a door unlocked for, makes this work. He gives a call in the morning if the weather is bad, or some materials didn't arrive in time on some other job, or they're waiting for inspection on some other job.... and he comes in that day. Win-win. Quality-wise, like yours, he's excellent.
If they're amenable to a very flexible arrangement, being a filler isn't necessarily all that bad.
Then again, there are contractors who are just plain piss-poor at any arrangement.
Banty
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:57:13 GMT, "Noozer" scribbled this interesting note:
There is a vast difference between your homebuilder and someone who is a master craftsman, someone who insists on doing the job right the first time, someone who will accept nothing less than a job done properly, correctly, on time, and on or under budget.
We never work for home builders. Why? Because they don't pay well and there is plenty of better work to be found. Of course you had problems having your home built. Most big builders are little more than accumulations of accountants who have no experience or understanding of what actually goes into building a proper home.
-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
'The ones who don't show probably couldn't find a polite way to tell you over the phone they don't want your busienss; =A0'
ME: If they dont want the business for whatever reason, they SHOULD NOT make an appointment with the consumer ; instead , if they feel its going to be a waste of time or if the competition is too tough or its too small of a job or they are too busy.....they should simply say to the consumer on the phone :" I think im going to have to take a pass on this, but thank you for considering me" . Is this such a difficult thing to say instead of making an appointment so the consumer is left sitting around waiting for someone who doesnt have any integrity ???
Im an HVAC service contractor, and if i dont want to respond to a job that comes in over the phone, i tell them im going to have to take a pass , or, i cannot for 'x' amount of days/weeks.
Contractors , especially, need to have more courtesy. It would go a long way in how they are percieved by the general public.
reading through other replies in this thread was interesting, and a few more thoughts came to mind
if you are not a corporation, you are competing with them to get talent, and talent tends to follow the money,,,in effect, corporations are making life extremely hard on individuals
secondly, with 5 years restoration under his belt, has your husband considered trying to tackle the job himself?
You're always going after that bottom bid, heh.
Banty
you ain't a HVAC contractor...
ME: If they dont want the business for whatever reason, they SHOULD NOT make an appointment with the consumer ; instead , if they feel its going to be a waste of time or if the competition is too tough or its too small of a job or they are too busy.....they should simply say to the consumer on the phone :" I think im going to have to take a pass on this, but thank you for considering me" . Is this such a difficult thing to say instead of making an appointment so the consumer is left sitting around waiting for someone who doesnt have any integrity ???
Im an HVAC service contractor, and if i dont want to respond to a job that comes in over the phone, i tell them im going to have to take a pass , or, i cannot for 'x' amount of days/weeks.
Contractors , especially, need to have more courtesy. It would go a long way in how they are percieved by the general public.
actually my statements are based on WORKING for contractors, not hiring them
randy
The problem is that often you don't know what a reasonable price is, except by calling a few people and comparing prices. A while ago I needed to have my (street-to-house) water pipe replaced. Had one guy look at it and give me a quote for $2800, then after seeing the surprised look on my face he said $2500. I said I'd let him know. He called 10 minutes later from his car and said "I can do it for $2000, but you have to let me know today". That sounded like he was trying to rip me off, so at that point I decided I'd find a better price, or do the work myself if I couldn't find one. I called a few people from the yellow pages, and got estimates anywhere from $1100 to $4300 over the phone. Things like that tell me that some are just out to rip you off. In the end I had the guy who estimated $1100 over the phone come out to look at it, he showed up on time, stuck with the $1100 bid, was able to do the job the next day, and did a fine job. Needless to say, if I ever need anything else done, I'll call this guy. If anyone ever asks me if I know of a good plumber, I'll mention this guy.
As for going to his shop, I didn't know where it was. My friend had given me his name and number and I called him.
Well, I guess it could have been something I may have said, but I don't know what. I simply told him my name and said he came highly recommended from two of my friends who had used him, (I gave their names). I told him the kitchen was ready to go with new cabnits installed but no counter yet. He asked me what I wanted to do about back splashes and told me he could install tumbled marble. I said I would let my husband and he work out those details. He made the appointment, said he would bring some samples, and we could go to the yard and pick a slab. Then, nothing. Haven't heard from him since.
As for meeting people, it is just my husband and myself, our house is clean, and my husband always makes sure he has things well planned out. He had all the drawings ready as well as the sink template, and the location of the holes for the facuets, etc. We had made a decision on what we want for backsplashes (tile) and were ready to go. Seems like the right thing to me, but as I said earlier, we don't deal with contractors much so don't know the proper way, I guess. My husband is estimating about 70 square feet. Does that seem too small of a job or something? Thanks, Kim
Uh...thanks, but no thanks! We have invested a lot of money in this kitchen and the stuff we've seen there does not appeal to us in the least.
We have not borrowed on our equity. We have paid cash for each project every step of the way. My husband gutted the kitchen down to the studs and foundation, removed an island, put up new drywall, sprayed and knock down, painted, installed crown molding. We had custom cabnets made from a kitchen and bath place and my husband installed them. We bought nice tile and my husband installed that.
He has done our whole house that way, outside, inside, and backyard. But the granite, obviously, can't be done by us. We are ready to pay cash, and have it done. The kitchen is sitting there all brand new, except for the counter and appliances . I have been without a kitchen since August and am sooooo sick of sandwiches! Anyway. I really fail to see why someone would have a problem with it. They stand to make around 10,000. I'm estimating. All they have to do is come in make a template, and git er' done. And is it too much trouble to make a simple phone call if you are not going to make an appointment, or if you don't want the job just be direct (not chicken) and say so? My husband had to take off work and come wait for the guy. It's just plane impolite!
So you'll always end up with the crappy incompetent bozo.
PJ
This is Turtle.
NOOSE , your speaking about a grocery store and we are talking about the service business. Call up your local grocery store and tell them to get all their prices on the stuff in the store and bring it over to my house and I will see what I want to buy from you. Now this is a free estimate and if I don't like your prices i just send you on your way and call the next store to come see about what prices they have. Secret here NOOSER , No grocery store is coming to your house to discuss prices.
NOOSER , two totally different types of business which I see you do not understand.
TURTLE
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