Are Circuit Breakers Over-rated?

[DerbyDad03]

re: Fourth, while you are correct that I have no idea as to the OPs capabilities, I presumed his hand would fit a screwdriver (which is the extent of the skill-set that's required). If I erred in this assumption, I apologize.

I think the error in your assumption is that all it takes is a screwdriver and the associated skill set.

When I had my 60 amp fused service upgraded to a 150 amp breaker panel a bunch of years back, it required a new service cable from the bugs at the top of the house through the meter and then to the panel. I don't recall if it required new wires from the pole to the bugs.

I don't think it safe to "assume" that all the OP needs is a breaker box and a screwdriver to upgrade to 200 amps.

[DerbyDad03]

re: "Third, it's NOT dangerous. Or complicated. Union people do it every day."

That oughta endear you to the "union people".

[Pete C.]

That would be new since my NEC2002 book, including the expansion to rooms other than bedrooms. The NEC2002 had no such exception and specifically indicated protection for the "entire branch circuit". Since I live in an area with no code, permits or inspections, NEC2002 is quite sufficient for my needs.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Do you do things like that?

[HeyBub]

Oh. Right. What I meant to imply was that he could put in a 200 Amp service panel even if he is currently hooked-up with only 60 Amp service from the power company.

[HeyBub]

Buncha humorless scolds, you ask me.

[gfretwell]

The exception showed up in the 2005 book but we are still waiting for the "device type" AFCI. That is why I said "mythical" I do understand they exist but they are not out in the field the last I heard..

[John Grabowski]

*Fuses in the circuit breaker panel.

[terry]

My neighbour recently had his main fuse box replaced by a registered electrician. I'm glad he did! Couple of times in recent years had to help him out with fuse box problems and it had got to the point where we had moved a couple of fuse carriers to other positions on the buss-bars. Bad connections and comment like "The heat in such and such a room doesn't work any more"! Fuses were a mixture of screw-in (Edison screw) type fuse for single leg circuits and double fuse carriers each with two cartridge fuses for his electric baseboard heating circuits. Those cartridge fuse carriers could accommodate IIRC either 20 amp or 30 amp fuses. Not even sure the fuse panel was new when installed some 40 years ago! And it was on the 'weather' end of the house in a cool outer wall where there was also likelihood of some condensation? And inevitably the odd circuit had been added over the years especially when they remodeled their kitchen. The neighbours not being very electrically knowledgeable 'could' have put in wrong size fuse, although used to check that for them. So in this case the circuit breaker was/is the best replacement. But if the loads are OK, fuses and wiring the right type and size, the owners/occupiers sensible (no pennies), and the panel is tight, dry, and in good condition replacement may not be necessary at all. Do agree that if/when selling the property the lack of a 'proper' circuit breaker and the ensuing almost inevitable other costs that will be found necessary to be done in order to then meet code could knock quite a few dollars off the asking price! But as long as it is safe! The OP seems very responsible by asking the question; not one of those situations where a slum landlord is trying to get by without spending unnecessarily on repairs, eh? Good luck.

[RicodJour]

You didn't imply it, you said it. You said you can get everything at a big box store (they're selling experience and code knowledge now?), and it would only take an afternoon's work. No caveats, no "check to see", nothing except, "Hey, it ain't hard."

I think I saw your TV show, which one are you again...?

Let's do a little test. Check out this thread on another forum and tell me how many things to check and caveats you omitted in your "It Ain't Hard" post. Here's a hint: all of them.

"Should" is not a caution, it is a weasel word, and in your case indicating you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be giving advice on the topic.

R

[Pete C.]

Funny, I have the originally referenced AFCI circuit breakers in my Square D QO panel. If you mean an AFCI / GFCI combination receptacle product, I haven't seen one of those either.

[Jeffy3]

OP here. No, I will not try to do this myself. Installing light fixtures and ceiling fans are the extent of what I will do electrically.

[gfretwell]

This means "combo" in the sense that it protects from faults in the fixed wiring and also wiring on the load side of the receptacle (originally), then that was expanded to mean series and parallel arc faults. Cutttler Hammer does make a "combo" GFCI/AFCI breaker but that is basically just an AFCI with 5ma ground fault protection instead of

30ma . I am not sure what the status is of the AFCI device. I suspect it is either still in the listing phase or the manufacturers are waiting for the market to demand one. I think they would rather sell new panels to people who have ones too old to take the AFCI breaker. We are waiting for some company that only makes devices I guess.

[gfretwell]

Not a bad policy. There are a lot of hidden "gotchas" in replacing a service that take time to fix and you will be in the dark, with your fridge defrosting while you are doing it. Most times you will find out the wires are not long enough and stuff like that. It is not overwhelming but if you don't have a truck full of parts in the driveway you will be going to the depot a few times.

[RicodJour]

I'd never argue a personal comfort level decision unless the person were doing something risky. I don't know your abilities, and I wasn't calling them into question. I was responding to what I considered bad advice. Of course it's your house, your abilities, your call. Everyone has to pick their battles and balance that pesky risk v. reward thing. Pretty much everything in residential construction is doable by a determined DIYer, but that doesn't mean it will be easy, cheap, quick or safe.

One of the things about changing a panel is the opportunity to bring things up to date to conform to code (usually safety related), and correct sketchy installations. Old houses have lots of sketchy installations. Periodic house maintenance lets you keep an eye on things and catch problems before they become bigger problems. Your house isn't that old, but it's still the same idea whether it's painting, changing batteries in smoke detectors, cleaning your gutters or anything else. It gives you peace of mind. Consider it insurance.

There's nothing inherently dangerous about a fuse box, but at the least you should verify that outlets and the service are properly grounded, wire insulation isn't dried out, there are GFIs in the places they are supposed to be and that sort of thing. If that stuff checks out then it's a $ decision. I have never seen any payback info on swapping out a fuse box, but I would hazard a guess that you would see most if not all of that money back at the time of sale. It will certainly be one less item on the home inspector's report.

Good luck with the project.

R

[Bill]

I always say, if it works, don't fix it!

The main concern with fuses is that the CORRECT amperage fuse is installed for the wiring it is protecting. (And no pennies behind fuses!)

Have the electrician verify that you have the correct fuses installed.

Then fuses are dangerous to replace because you can accidentally touch a live metal part.

So long as you have the correct amperage fuses installed, continue to use the correct amperage fuses, and are super careful when replacing fuses (and are willing to take the risk), then I would say no problem.

The other thing is if the circuits are adequate or not. If you are not planning on buying anything which will use more electricity (like a new TV), and the existing electric system is fine with you, then no need to replace it.

One other consideration is safety. Modern electrical systems are much safer than older systems. They also can protect electronic gizmos from damage from voltage surges (with a whole house surge protector and a modern ground system). GFCI's installed will protect you from being electrocuted. AFCI breakers can prevent electrical fires. Child safe outlets can protect small children from being shocked. Etc. Basically a modern electrical system is about 10 times more safe than an old fuse box system in my opinion. But this includes rewiring the entire house, not just replacing the fuse boxes.

[DerbyDad03]

Regardless of what you meant to imply, that is essentially what you

*did* imply.

Your alternative was an upgrade to a 200 AMP *service* (your word - twice) for $300 using only a screwdriver.

It's OK for you to admit that it was a bad - or at a minimum, an incomplete - suggestion.

[HeyBub]

I admit to a little exaggeration. He will also need some pliers, wire-strippers, a drill, and maybe a socket wrench to screw the tapcons or anchors to attach the box to the wall. Other small tools may be useful - for example a hex wrench to tighten the primary's connectors instead of a flat-bladed screwdriver and a crescent wrench.

He may even find a use for pencil, paper, and a pocket camera.

I do so admit.

As an act of contrition, I intend to feel shame the rest of the day.

[Steve Daniels]

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:38:50 -0800 (PST), against all advice, something compelled Jeffy3 , to say:

If the people in your neighborhood wanted to increase the amount of power available, they would have to go to a breaker box. I've had them both, and the breakers are more convenient because they can just be reset rather than replaced, but they aren't worth the expense if that's all you want from them.

[Jeffy3]

OP Here: So here is the $800 estimate:

Removing the existing 60-amp fuse box, meter socket and service cable. Install a 100 amp service with a 20 circuit panel Run 30 ft. of 1-- amp service cable and install a new meter socket. Install an 8 ft. ground rod and wire it to the panel. Supply new connectors, straps, circuit breakers and a service head. Mark the main appliances in the house.

Anything I should question? Thanks again