During a kitchen remodel in my mom's circa 1948 house (post WWII made out o f reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mention ed to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn' t be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outl ets work properly.
They reacted in horror saying it could cause a fire or even worse. I said t hat at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker woul d trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
Best to leave things as they are. We once owned a 1948 house. Part of the wiring was done backwards so the white was hot and black was common. Yours could be the same way.
of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I menti oned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably would n't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereb y grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded ou tlets work properly.
I would think that if metal conduit is being used, it's already grounded back at the panel, no?
As to making the grounded outlets work properly, it;s clearly a major code violation to install grounded outlets if they are not grounded properly to begin with. New outlets cannot be put in during a renovation without conforming to the grounding requiremets. And since it's a kitchen, GFCI as well.
that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker wo uld trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
You seem to be more on track then your brother. There is no fire risk from properly grounding the conduit. Did you ask him how the new outlets are grounded? If they were put in without a ground, no GFCI, etc, then that is a real shock hazard? Who's doint this work? Permits pulled?
of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I menti oned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably would n't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereb y grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded ou tlets work properly.
that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker wo uld trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
If it's conduit all the way to the panel then it is likely grounded at the panel.
The conduit goes back to your breaker box (or fuse box if the system has not been upgraded) and the breaker box itself is ground...OR SHOULD BE. The proper way to ground the outlets, it you are using a standard three wire plug is to have the ground terminal connected to a ground wire which would normally be inside the conduit. If there is no ground wire inside you will need to run one to do things properly.
The main caveat is that you have absolute certainty that the water pipe is metal all the way to the water meter, and doesn't transition into PVC. You also have to make a solid connection to the pipe that will not be compromised due to corrosion if the pipe is steel.
If you can accomplish these two issues, it would technically work, but I'm guessssing it's probably not going to be code compliant (should the incoming pipe be replaced by PVC in the future, the ground would end up being non functional).
I'm not a licensed electrician. But, your idea sounds first rate, to me. I'd also want to trace the cold pipe back, make sure it's grounded. Not insulated with CPVC for example.
With the recent popularity of plastic pipe, it may be unwise to.trust in a cold water pipe as a ground. A bit of plastic pipe used for a repair may disconnect the pipe from the ground.
There are some testers that will verify the quality of the ground SureTest is one. It is not the $5 3 light tester. A sure test actually puts a load on the ground.
ut of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I men tioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wou ldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, ther eby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounded outlets work properly.
id that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breaker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
AFAIK, there is nothing in code that says metal conduit can't be used as the grounding conductor, ie that you don't have to pull a separate wire.
That about sums it up. It would work, but it's not code compliant. Nor should it be necessary because the conduit should be grounded back at the panel.
out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I m entioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably w ouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, th ereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making grounde d outlets work properly.
said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the breake r would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
True. However if the house was built in '48, the insulation on the conduct ors in the conduit is possibly cloth covered rubber, in which case I'd give serious thought to repulling the home run. If the conduit is big enough I would go ahead and pull 12AWG conductors as the old ones are likely 14AWG
- and maybe two hots, see comment re: Edison circuit below - with a dedicat ed ground conductor - not required, but belt and suspenders.
Read up on your code (NEC aka NFPA 70) ... a kitchen remodel requires a min imum of two dedicated 20A (12AWG) circuits with GFCIs for counter receptacl es. I'm not sure if a single Edison circuit for the home run would be code compliant now or if you're required to have an AFCI breaker in the kitchen as well.
Using a water pipe as a ground in a situation where you're replacing a two wire receptacle with a grounding type receptacle *used* to be an accepted m ethod, but is no longer code compliant. That would have only applied when there was no ground present however, and a continuous run of metal conduit back to the panel counts as a ground.
You will probably need new (deeper) boxes in the wall as well to comply wit h current box fill requirements. You definitely will if you are using 12AW G.
Finally, check your *local* codes for what you have to do for any new work; sometimes they are more restrictive than the NEC.
One thing that you may want to do, if you are concerned about grounding (no t a bad thing to worry about) more bang for your buck and code legal is mak ing sure that your water service is bonded to the ground/neutral bus at the panel, and if you don't have ground rods or a Ufer ground (I doubt it in a house that old) consider driving some ground rods. Also since you're upgr ading, a surge protector at the panel can be helpful if you're in a storm p rone area.
de out of reinforced concrete!) with 2-wire electrical and metal conduit, I mentioned to my brother and nephew that, since it was exposed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to ground the wiring conduit to a cold water pipe, thereby grounding the entire conduit run and at the very least making groun ded outlets work properly.
I said that at least you'd know if you had a short circuit because the brea ker would trip and touching something metal wouldn't kill you.
ctors in the conduit is possibly cloth covered rubber, in which case I'd gi ve serious thought to repulling the home run. If the conduit is big enough I would go ahead and pull 12AWG conductors as the old ones are likely 14AW G - and maybe two hots, see comment re: Edison circuit below - with a dedic ated ground conductor - not required, but belt and suspenders.
inimum of two dedicated 20A (12AWG) circuits with GFCIs for counter recepta cles. I'm not sure if a single Edison circuit for the home run would be co de compliant now or if you're required to have an AFCI breaker in the kitch en as well.
You started out replying to my post with a "true" and then segued into the above, about reading code, which I think you meant for the OP. I agree with your observations. How much, if any of that applies, depends on what he means by "kitchen renovation". So far all he's said about anything to do with the electrical was the one very limited question. If they are adding outlets, etc, which is certainly typical of many kitchen renovation, particularly in that age houe, I agree there are a whole lot of issues beyond the question asked. And it also sounds like they are beyond the skill level of those involved. If they are redoing the electrical, it's kind of scary that they would be asking that question. If that's the case, probably time to call a pro. Better to do it right now while the kitchen work is being done, then have to deal with a mess later.
o wire receptacle with a grounding type receptacle *used* to be an accepted method, but is no longer code compliant. That would have only applied whe n there was no ground present however, and a continuous run of metal condui t back to the panel counts as a ground.
ith current box fill requirements. You definitely will if you are using 12 AWG.
k; sometimes they are more restrictive than the NEC.
not a bad thing to worry about) more bang for your buck and code legal is m aking sure that your water service is bonded to the ground/neutral bus at t he panel, and if you don't have ground rods or a Ufer ground (I doubt it in a house that old) consider driving some ground rods. Also since you're up grading, a surge protector at the panel can be helpful if you're in a storm prone area.
No outlets are being added. You couldn't add them if you wanted to--all of the electrical is buried in concrete (the house is solid reinforced concrete) . The new kitchen is merely taking the place of the old kitchen. Same footprint.
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