You have no concept of what kind of transients can damage CMOS I
guess. We are talking about a few dozen joules at a couple hundred
Certainly the static electricity from shuffling across the rug will do
it but it does not take much to bleed that off.
If you are talking about lightning protection itself, you really need
a superior path before you have protected anything. As I have stated
several times. I have a weather station on a mast above my garage.
There is a lightning rod 3' above it. Lightning has hit that at least
twice and perhaps more than that. 99.99999% of that strike went
straight to ground. There was still an EMP on the signal wire. My
entrance protectors are useless against that hit, yet I have survived
those strikes. The PC it is connected to survived the first one but I
lost the serial port (it still worked but it was flaky). The second
time, after adding more protection, I only had to reboot it.
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 1:57:33 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
No spin in that statement. Another has demonstrated why why surges can eve
n enter a house from underground conductors or geology. He heard the arc o
f lightning current passing through his house. Ten second later, he heard
the sound from that lightning entering earth some two miles distant.
How at risk are your household appliances? Geology is a major parameter.
That current enters on overhead or underground conductors - wires or pipes.
A nearby struck tree can be a surge current connected directly into house
hold applies - if a properly earthed 'whole house' solution is not implemen
I wouldn't have used the word before, but now I think that's just what
you're doing. Spinning. You didn't answer my questions.
"Do you disagree that the risk with underground is lower?
If yes, then why do you say it doesn't matter which it is?"
I'm going to assume you know that one story about one house, or even
100 houses, does not make a risk as great when there are many 1000's
of houses with overhead wires whose contents are damaged by lightning.
So it does matter whether your service is overhead or underground.
Don't complain when politicians give you doubletalk. You do the
I don't care. That's not what I posted about or what I thought you
would address if you answered.
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:32:29 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
even enter a house from underground conductors or geology. He heard the ar
c of lightning current passing through his house. Ten second later, he hea
rd the sound from that lightning entering earth some two miles distant.
Welcome to W Toms world. Been there, done that. You posed a simple, dire
question that goes to the heart of the issue, instead of answering it, he s
and diverts. Of course your analysis is correct. The scenario with overhe
service conductors, power lines overhead down the street, provides a scenar
where damaging surges with more energy can arrive at the panel than the sce
with them underground.
. That current enters on overhead or underground conductors - wires or pip
es. A nearby struck tree can be a surge current connected directly into ho
usehold applies - if a properly earthed 'whole house' solution is not imple
Welcome to W Toms world. It's like trying to have a conversation with a
bowl of jello.
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:32:29 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
Underground wires that enter telco COs get same protection as wires that ar
e overhead. In one venue, that protector failed at the subscriber interfac
e. That wire from CO to subscriber was completely underground. Why did he
have a surge if a threat does not exist as you only assume? Because the t
hreat does exist. Because the threat has been well understood for longer t
han any of us have existed.
Professionals demonstrate how protection must be installed in a Tech Note.
Protection is even on the incoming underground phone line because (as indi
cated in the picture) a lightning strike can enter via buried wires:
Legendary application notes from Polyphaser state same:
A Bell System Technical Journal paper in the late 1950s by Bodle and Gresh
describe lightning strikes to underground cables over 5 month period in NJ,
MI, GA, and MD. Somehow professionals have it wrong?
Does not matter if wires are overhead or underground. All incoming wires -
overhead or underground - must connect low impedance to properly earthed '
whole house' protection before entering a structure - assuming one wants to
NOBODY said there was No threat - just that the threat is
significantly reduced - and nothing you have said has come close to
providing evidence that is not true. Lightning isn't the only threat
to above-ground wiring that causes surges and spikes either - most of
which are even more uncommon with underground services.
NOTHING can guarantee 100% protection from lightning. You reduce your
exposure as much as yopu can within the limits of cost vs probability.
I don't care about surge protection that is added. The topic was what
the risk was without protection.
Don't put words in my mouth, especially words I said the opposite of.
I never said there a thread doesn't exist. In fact even the part at
the top here makes clear that I believe that a house with underground
wires can have lightning damage.
It was bad enough when you avoided my question, but that's about you.
Putting words in my mouth that I didn't say or imply is about me, and
That quote doesn't address whether the risk is greater or not. If
you think the risk is the same underground or overhead, just say that.
You've never said that. Had you said that after my first post, we
would have been done by now.
That you go to so much effort not to say the risk is the same makes me
think you think the risk is greater for overhead.
Proper whole house protection is irrelevant to the topic.
In the case of this washer, I would say Tom's polyphaser would give
you plenty of protection. There are no other parallel paths. You are
only looking at L/N spikes.
Everyone should have main panel or meter can protectors.
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 1:57:33 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
g clocks, RCD, furnace, recharging phones, and the most critical item durin
g a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to pr
otect from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to ea
rth BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.
ges (lightning and other sources) remains.
Interesting that you picked up on that does not matter point too.
ing. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect to single point earth
ground BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth des
tructively via appliances. Earth ground (not a protector) is the most crit
ical component in every protection 'system'.
hot wire to neutral or safety ground wires. Now that surge has even more p
aths to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby applia
nce. Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' so
lution is not implemented.
All AC appliances that have electronics in them should have and almost
certainly would have it. So, you'd find them in a new toaster with
digital controls, but not in one with no electronics.
A related question that W Tom has never been able to answer is how these
small MOVs inside an appliance are all peachy keen, robust, effective, etc,
yet a plug-in that's placed right before it with much larger MOVs and
operating with the same limitations, can actually cause destruction.
On Fri, 20 May 2016 06:37:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
This is one of my biggest interests. We all have very different or
somewhat different goals, and while the world is not entirely a
zero-sum game, there definitely are times when one party's gain is
I can't make that go away, but I don't think things should be made
worse by misstatements of fact, or competing parties unintentionally
or intentionally using the same word with different definitions, or
lying, or exaggerating, or any of the various communication problems
that don't have to exist. I'd like to make them go away.
I don't want to give the impression I think lying is always bad. That
idea is overly simple. There are times when it's not just okay, it's
the proper thing to do.
One can divide lies into three categories, those made to benefit a
third party, those made to benefit the party one is talking to, and
those meant to benefit oneself.
The third category, to benefit oneself, is most likely to include bad
and terrible lies, and probably some that are okay.
The second category, to benefit the person you are talking to, clearly
includes both bad and good lies.
Bad: You steal 100 dollars from your girlfriend's wallet, or 100,000
from the place you work, and when asked you say, "No, I didn't steal
Good: Your 2-year old son's father is killed when he's raping a
woman and she or someone else kills him. Now because of the web, he
might be able to learn about this when he's an adult, but when that
was impossible, and you had no family that would tell him, the proper
thing was to tell him he died in car accident, for example. Even now
there are people killed while doing terrible things but who don't live
a public record of it.
The third category, to benefit a 3rd party (when the speaker is
benefitting not much or not at all). Examples escape me now, but it's
late, the computer is short of RAM, and I want to post this. Anyhow,
most people don't like to lie** and if they lie to benefit some good
third party, it may weel be the right thing to do.
**Except Rump and his ilk.
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 1:04:57 AM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
Of course lies from Hillary and all the libs, why they are peachy keen
to you. Never see you bitching here about those lies or corruption,
not even once. You're just like Trump in some ways. You just have
your own little version of the world and the facts don't matter.
On 5/19/2016 9:10 AM, westom wrote:
Someone says "surge" and, like magic, the village idiot appears.
Westom googles for "surge". He has joined an astonishing number of
forums to spread his misinformation.
For proven science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides (links in
Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.
It is westom's religious belief - immune from challenge. Since plug-in
protectors are not well earthed westom can not figure out how they work.
It is clearly explained in the IEEE surge guide, starting page 30 (and
summarized in another post)
Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."
Service panel protectors do not by themselves prevent high voltages from
developing between power and phone/cable/... wires. The NIST surge
guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power
and signal wires.
May have some or none. Never as much as a plug-in protector.
Of course not.
Protection is not by "blocking" or "absorbing". If westom could only
think he could find out how protection works.
Newer, just 10-15 years ago, they started adding some kind of resistor fuse
to keep the supressor from catching fire. Don't us old ones.
I also took off my whole house supressor, when I learned here, mine was a
fire starter. Best enclosed well in metal enclosure. Not sure about breaker
devices. If they fail, the box innards could fry causin all kinds of sparks
I have repaired electronic equiptement my entire adult life. I am 59.
turned my tv on one night and must of jumped a foot, lightning hit close by.
the tv was dead. found the bridge rectifier, had blown, it actually had exploded.
hada copier that acted up after storms. added a big MOV and had no more issues.
one day my mom had lightning strike her neighbors tree, killed the tree.
killed my moms garage door opener. i replaced the main board on the nearly brand new garage door opener.
lightning is screwey, it wipes out some things and leaves others untouched.
manufacturers of everything should have to pass a power line damage resistance test.
cheapening of everythng causes endless troubles
On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 4:32:44 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
Lightning is not capricious. If all but invited inside, then lightning wil
l hunt for a destructive connection to earth via appliances. It was incomi
ng to everything. It found a best and destructive outgoing path only via a
TV. In your mom's case, it found a best and outgoing path destructively v
ia a garage door opener.
Both an incoming and outgoing path must exist to have damage.
Because it found a best path to earth destructively via that one appliance,
then it need not blow through (overwhelm) protection in other appliances.
If a surge current is earthed BEFORE entering, then it need not hunt for ea
rth via any appliance.
A surge would be incoming to everything. Only one (or some) item also made
a best outgoing path to earth. If that path is not a properly earthed prot
ector (ie rated at least 50,000 amps), then lightning finds a path, destruc
tively, via some appliance. Protection (even 100 years ago) was always abo
ut earthing BEFORE a surge enters a building. It is not capricious. It lo
cates a best connection to earth harmlessly via a 'whole house' protector o
r destructively via an appliance. Often only one or two appliances is dama
ged by a surge that is incoming to everything.
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