Anyone using a surge suppressor on their washing machines?

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On 5/20/2016 10:39 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

From an expert investigation - maximum energy at a plug-in protector was 35 joules, and almost all cases under 1 joule, with a power line surge including those caused by a 100,000A lightning strike to the primary wire at an adjacent utility pole. The maximum energy wasn't even from the worst surge.
When the voltage at service panel busbars reaches about 6,000V there is arc-over to the enclosure. The voltage of the established arc is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing system that dumps most of the surge energy to earth. Since the "ground" and neutral are also connected to the enclosure, the exposure beyond the panel if far less than imagined.
A strong surge will drive the voltage on the busbars to 6,000V and arc-over. With a weaker surge, a plug-in protector on a short branch circuit may keep the service panel voltage below arc-over. The 35 joule energy in the investigation was with one of those weaker surges.
I don't suggest that people use plug-in protectors. I suggest they make decisions based on science. Discussion centers on plug-in protectors because of the misinformation posted by westom (and other misinformation that has been posted).
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On 5/20/2016 2:12 AM, westom wrote:

Complete nonsense.

Complete nonsense.
Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties.

As detailed in a post to philo, the amount of energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is very small, even with a very strong, very near lightning strike to power wires.

Complete nonsense.

it will do.
Complete nonsense.
For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.
Then read westom's sources that say they do not work. There are none.
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On 5/19/2016 12:44 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

It will do a lot more than that, as detailed in a post to philo.
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wrote:

Pre-entry is definitely best (whole house mprotection) My smoke detectors are all battery operated - so no problem there. People tend to protect the more expensive and critical cevices.

The chance of a "direct hit" on an underground service is a LOT less than an overhead, and unserground does not act as much as an antenna for a "near strike"

POU protectors protect against highn transients that either get through or are caused inside the house

Your assumption that all appliances contain robust protection is open to discussion. and dissagreement.
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On 05/19/2016 12:05 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

<snip>

Many years the utility pole directly behind my house got a direct lightning hit. I was in the kitchen and almost lost it when I observed the simultaneous lightning and thunder!
My answering machine was on the closest run to the outdoor wiring and was taken out...but nothing else in the house was damaged.
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On 5/19/2016 11:54 AM, philo wrote:

As a kid, I used to play the "5 second game" (flash-to-sound) during Tstorms. One evening, the house "shook" as I saw the flash. I.e., too startled to even think of "counting". Of course, had I tried to count, I wouldn't have made it past "0"! :>
Next morning, noticed lots of bark on the ground beneath one of the walnut trees adjacent to the living room. "That's odd". Looked up to see the bark peeled off one side of the tree all the way to the top! "Ah! That must have been what shook the house!"

We had a "nearby" strike when living in Denver (no idea how close it was as I was at work at the time). It took out the protection network in one of our (cheap) "electronic" telephones -- resulting in a perpetual off-hook indication (annoying cuz every time I tried to call home, the line was "busy"!). Also magnetized the screen in our TV. Took many weeks of the built-in degausser operating to restore color purity!
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On Thu, 19 May 2016 12:00:20 -0700, Don Y

We get plenty of thunderstorm practice here in Florida. There is a thunderstorm just about every day for 6-7 months of the year. We call that thing "Flash/bang" lightning when they both occur at the same time. Usually when a tree is hit, you will see little sticks everywhere, burning on both ends.
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On Thu, 19 May 2016 12:00:20 -0700, Don Y

was dwarfed by a HUGE Oak tree, about 3 times as tall as the house and some 18 feet in circumference at chest height. They had both a well and a cistern on the "back porch" - opposite side of the house from the oak, and a big bank barn on the other side of the tree - house and barn both festooned with lightning rods. All rhis perched on the top of a hill, no-less. Several times the cystern pump or well pump were struck, and on at least one occaision the ligtning jumped from the pump, through the back door,to the aluminum edging on the kitchen counter, to the wood cookstove, to the water pump on the kitchen sink - on one occaision going through an enamelled steel dipper and blowing off the enamel on the earth side about the size of a silver dollar. The oak was struck numerous times, and fire-balls flying around the yard during a thunderstorm were not at all uncommon. Who knows how many times either the house or barn took a direct hit - and never a fire, although it did blow part of the roof off the barn at least once.
Forward ahead 50 years or so, and friends who also live at the top of a hill on a farm were having problems keeping electric fence chargers functioning, because with about 2 miles of fence connected, a lightning strike anywhere within 3 or 4 miles would induce such a charge on the fence that it would kill the charger. We ended up installinf an air-core choke and spark-gap lightning arrester on the fence and in a storm you could see the spark jump the gap to ground and the fence-charger l;ived another day.
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I was in my driveway with a Mexican concrete guy when my garage mounted weather station was hit *the second time). Very exciting stuff. The shock wave felt like getting hit in the face with a wet towel. Everything was blue for a second. I am not sure if it was really blue or that was just an electrical shock to the optic nerve. It's a good thing the GDO was still working or my buddy Poncho would have made a roadrunner style hole in the door.
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On 05/19/2016 02:05 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
To all: I was in the Army with a guy who one day in casual conversation mentioned that he had once been struck indirectly by lightning. (We sometimes called him "old man Robbie: because he was 24 years old.)
It was not much of a story and I don't think he told it to anyone else.
Then, a few months later word spread through the barracks that Robbie had been hit (indirectly) by lightning while he was on guard duty.
When I got the word, everyone in my unit freaked out when all I said was:
Again?
Then they learned about his previous encounter.
Any, once they replaced his eardrum he was OK
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Came in on phone line. Phone line also needs protection.
Greg
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 4:08:59 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:

Phone line must already have been protection installed for free. Unfortuna tely that protector is only as effective as an earth ground that you provid e and are responsible for maintaining.
Most common incoming surge path is AC electric. Once inside, it hunts for earth destructively via household appliances. Damage means both an incomin g and an outgoing path must exist. Damaged are appliances that make a best outgoing connection to earth.
Incoming on AC mains into an answering machine. Outgoing to earth via the telco 'installed for free' protector. Damage is often on the outgoing path .
You assumed the outgoing path was an incoming path. Why would a surge ente r on a protected wire. And not enter on the most commonly unprotected wire - AC electric. You had damage because a surge was all but invited inside. It more likely found an excellent outgoing path to earth destructively via the answering machine and phone line.
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wrote:

Modems were the first things we determined would benefit from a point of use protector and with thousands of them installed, we had lots of chance to test the theory. The telco protection was designed to keep an old style Western Electric phone from catching on fire, not to protect CMOS. On a recording volt meter we saw alarming transients getting past their "gas" protectors. If you still had the carbon rods, you might as well just tie a knot in the cord. Certainly you need to be sure the Telco protector is bonded to the GES on the service but that is not all you need. The longer the phone wires are on the customer side of the Dmark, the less protection you have.
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 3:42:23 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

vide and are responsible for maintaining.

ming and an outgoing path must exist. Damaged are appliances that make a b est outgoing connection to earth.

ath.

ire - AC electric. You had damage because a surge was all but invited insid e. It more likely found an excellent outgoing path to earth destructively via the answering machine and phone line.

+1
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wrote:

Do you disagree that the risk with underground is lower?
If yes, then why do you say it doesn't matter which it is? This kind of clever phrasing is what politicians use to make a point that sounds stronger than it should. But I see it a lot from regular folk.
Here the statement should have skipped half of the first sentence and been "Risk from surges () remains whether the AC service is overhead or underground." That's all you are saying, but for some reason** you want to say O vs. U doesn't matter, even though, if the risk is lower, of course it matters.
**It may just be a habit people pick up from listening to others who speak in the same way. But IMVSO it's a bad habit.

Now I"m just quibbing but you must mean major appliances. I've taken toasters, table radios, etc. apart and there was no surge protection.

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On Fri, 20 May 2016 01:57:13 -0400, Micky

Most of these things are fairly immune to transients. A toaster will just get momentarily and imperceptibly hotter for a few microseconds. This stuff really did not become a huge issue until we started using CMOS and that is everywhere now. Microwaves and washing machines would still be fine if they did not have that little circuit board. Usually the bad part is the clock. We had a real nice "lightning damaged" microwave in our shop. I drilled a hole through that touch panel and put in a spring wound timer. It worked great.
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On Fri, 20 May 2016 02:18:22 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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On Fri, 20 May 2016 12:35:07 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The problem is that the "clock" (and that circuit board) is on all the time. The actual cooking part is only on if you are cooking. The ones that use relays are very well isolated when it is "off". The same will be true of the new washing machines that started this thread. That $400 circuit board is always on.
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 12:47:26 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Obviously a millimeters gap in a relay does not block what three miles of s ky cannot. Appliances contain robust protection from a type of surge that a power strip might protect from. Concern is for a completely different ty pe of surge that actually does damage - will even blow through a millimeter s gap inside a relay.
That means that surge must be connected low impedance to earth BEFORE enter ing a building - so that it does not blow through millimeter relay gaps and other robust protection that already exists inside each appliance.
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 2:39:51 PM UTC-4, westom wrote:

Obviously only a tiny part of the energy of a lightning bolt traveling through 3 miles of sky is going to make it to an appliance in a house.

Yes, and it almost always uses MOVs as I showed you with the Littlefuse reference, app notes, etc. You deny that MOVs are used in appliances period. So, we're all still waiting to hear exactly how this "robust" protection is accomplished in your world?
Poor W Tom. Supposed to be an expert on surge protection, but doesn't know what's in an appliance power circuit.
Concern is for a completely different type of surge that actually does damage - will even blow through a millimeters gap inside a relay.

That "robust" protection inside the appliance has no low impedance path to ground. So, how can it possibly work? And note that you rant on about impedance in one direction only and ignore it in the other direction. The same wiring impedance also limits the surge that can reach an appliance.
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