Anyone using a surge suppressor on their washing machines?

It will do a lot more than that, as detailed in a post to philo.

Reply to
bud--
Loading thread data ...

Complete nonsense.

Complete nonsense.

Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties.

As detailed in a post to philo, the amount of energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is very small, even with a very strong, very near lightning strike to power wires.

Complete nonsense.

doing near zero protection. It does exactly what the manufacturer says it will do.

Complete nonsense.

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.

Then read westom's sources that say they do not work. There are none.

Reply to
bud--

10,000 volts

Reply to
bud--

Underground wires that enter telco COs get same protection as wires that ar e overhead. In one venue, that protector failed at the subscriber interfac e. That wire from CO to subscriber was completely underground. Why did he have a surge if a threat does not exist as you only assume? Because the t hreat does exist. Because the threat has been well understood for longer t han any of us have existed.

Professionals demonstrate how protection must be installed in a Tech Note. Protection is even on the incoming underground phone line because (as indi cated in the picture) a lightning strike can enter via buried wires:

formatting link

Legendary application notes from Polyphaser state same:

formatting link

A Bell System Technical Journal paper in the late 1950s by Bodle and Gresh describe lightning strikes to underground cables over 5 month period in NJ, MI, GA, and MD. Somehow professionals have it wrong?

Does not matter if wires are overhead or underground. All incoming wires - overhead or underground - must connect low impedance to properly earthed ' whole house' protection before entering a structure - assuming one wants to protect appliances.

Reply to
westom

Obviously a millimeters gap in a relay does not block what three miles of s ky cannot. Appliances contain robust protection from a type of surge that a power strip might protect from. Concern is for a completely different ty pe of surge that actually does damage - will even blow through a millimeter s gap inside a relay.

That means that surge must be connected low impedance to earth BEFORE enter ing a building - so that it does not blow through millimeter relay gaps and other robust protection that already exists inside each appliance.

Reply to
westom

Phone line must already have been protection installed for free. Unfortuna tely that protector is only as effective as an earth ground that you provid e and are responsible for maintaining.

Most common incoming surge path is AC electric. Once inside, it hunts for earth destructively via household appliances. Damage means both an incomin g and an outgoing path must exist. Damaged are appliances that make a best outgoing connection to earth.

Incoming on AC mains into an answering machine. Outgoing to earth via the telco 'installed for free' protector. Damage is often on the outgoing path .

You assumed the outgoing path was an incoming path. Why would a surge ente r on a protected wire. And not enter on the most commonly unprotected wire - AC electric. You had damage because a surge was all but invited inside. It more likely found an excellent outgoing path to earth destructively via the answering machine and phone line.

Reply to
westom

Obviously only a tiny part of the energy of a lightning bolt traveling through 3 miles of sky is going to make it to an appliance in a house.

Yes, and it almost always uses MOVs as I showed you with the Littlefuse reference, app notes, etc. You deny that MOVs are used in appliances period. So, we're all still waiting to hear exactly how this "robust" protection is accomplished in your world?

Poor W Tom. Supposed to be an expert on surge protection, but doesn't know what's in an appliance power circuit.

Concern is for a completely different type of surge that actually does damage - will even blow through a millimeters gap inside a relay.

That "robust" protection inside the appliance has no low impedance path to ground. So, how can it possibly work? And note that you rant on about impedance in one direction only and ignore it in the other direction. The same wiring impedance also limits the surge that can reach an appliance.

Reply to
trader_4

NOBODY said there was No threat - just that the threat is significantly reduced - and nothing you have said has come close to providing evidence that is not true. Lightning isn't the only threat to above-ground wiring that causes surges and spikes either - most of which are even more uncommon with underground services.

NOTHING can guarantee 100% protection from lightning. You reduce your exposure as much as yopu can within the limits of cost vs probability.

Reply to
clare

You have no concept of what kind of transients can damage CMOS I guess. We are talking about a few dozen joules at a couple hundred volts. Certainly the static electricity from shuffling across the rug will do it but it does not take much to bleed that off. If you are talking about lightning protection itself, you really need a superior path before you have protected anything. As I have stated several times. I have a weather station on a mast above my garage. There is a lightning rod 3' above it. Lightning has hit that at least twice and perhaps more than that. 99.99999% of that strike went straight to ground. There was still an EMP on the signal wire. My entrance protectors are useless against that hit, yet I have survived those strikes. The PC it is connected to survived the first one but I lost the serial port (it still worked but it was flaky). The second time, after adding more protection, I only had to reboot it.

Reply to
gfretwell

I don't care about surge protection that is added. The topic was what the risk was without protection.

Don't put words in my mouth, especially words I said the opposite of. I never said there a thread doesn't exist. In fact even the part at the top here makes clear that I believe that a house with underground wires can have lightning damage.

It was bad enough when you avoided my question, but that's about you.

Putting words in my mouth that I didn't say or imply is about me, and that's worse.

That quote doesn't address whether the risk is greater or not. If you think the risk is the same underground or overhead, just say that. You've never said that. Had you said that after my first post, we would have been done by now.

That you go to so much effort not to say the risk is the same makes me think you think the risk is greater for overhead.

Proper whole house protection is irrelevant to the topic.

Reply to
Micky

Modems were the first things we determined would benefit from a point of use protector and with thousands of them installed, we had lots of chance to test the theory. The telco protection was designed to keep an old style Western Electric phone from catching on fire, not to protect CMOS. On a recording volt meter we saw alarming transients getting past their "gas" protectors. If you still had the carbon rods, you might as well just tie a knot in the cord. Certainly you need to be sure the Telco protector is bonded to the GES on the service but that is not all you need. The longer the phone wires are on the customer side of the Dmark, the less protection you have.

Reply to
gfretwell

In the case of this washer, I would say Tom's polyphaser would give you plenty of protection. There are no other parallel paths. You are only looking at L/N spikes. Everyone should have main panel or meter can protectors.

Reply to
gfretwell

This is one of my biggest interests. We all have very different or somewhat different goals, and while the world is not entirely a zero-sum game, there definitely are times when one party's gain is another's loss.

I can't make that go away, but I don't think things should be made worse by misstatements of fact, or competing parties unintentionally or intentionally using the same word with different definitions, or lying, or exaggerating, or any of the various communication problems that don't have to exist. I'd like to make them go away.

Reply to
Micky

unately that protector is only as effective as an earth ground that you pro vide and are responsible for maintaining.

or earth destructively via household appliances. Damage means both an inco ming and an outgoing path must exist. Damaged are appliances that make a b est outgoing connection to earth.

he telco 'installed for free' protector. Damage is often on the outgoing p ath.

nter on a protected wire. And not enter on the most commonly unprotected w ire - AC electric. You had damage because a surge was all but invited insid e. It more likely found an excellent outgoing path to earth destructively via the answering machine and phone line.

+1
Reply to
trader_4

I75 in what state??????

Reply to
hrhofmann

I don't want to give the impression I think lying is always bad. That idea is overly simple. There are times when it's not just okay, it's the proper thing to do.

One can divide lies into three categories, those made to benefit a third party, those made to benefit the party one is talking to, and those meant to benefit oneself.

The third category, to benefit oneself, is most likely to include bad and terrible lies, and probably some that are okay.

The second category, to benefit the person you are talking to, clearly includes both bad and good lies. Bad: You steal 100 dollars from your girlfriend's wallet, or 100,000 from the place you work, and when asked you say, "No, I didn't steal it." Bad. Good: Your 2-year old son's father is killed when he's raping a woman and she or someone else kills him. Now because of the web, he might be able to learn about this when he's an adult, but when that was impossible, and you had no family that would tell him, the proper thing was to tell him he died in car accident, for example. Even now there are people killed while doing terrible things but who don't live a public record of it.

The third category, to benefit a 3rd party (when the speaker is benefitting not much or not at all). Examples escape me now, but it's late, the computer is short of RAM, and I want to post this. Anyhow, most people don't like to lie** and if they lie to benefit some good third party, it may weel be the right thing to do.

**Except Rump and his ilk.
Reply to
Micky

Florida

Reply to
gfretwell

Of course lies from Hillary and all the libs, why they are peachy keen to you. Never see you bitching here about those lies or corruption, not even once. You're just like Trump in some ways. You just have your own little version of the world and the facts don't matter.

Reply to
trader_4

Of course it doesn't Protectors do not work by "blocking" or "absorbing" a surge. (But both service panel and plug-in protectors do absorb some energy in the process of protecting.)

Of course not. Protectors do not work by "absorbing".

And as has been pointed out many times, in an expert investigation the maximum energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is quite small -

35 joules and usually far less even with the worst probable surge on power service wires.

But it is all too complicated for westom's simple minded beliefs.

And his stupid idea that appliances have intrinsic protection higher than a plug-in protector If they did, the manufacturer would list them under the UL standard for surge protection - an advertizing advantage.

The maximum energy that can make it to a plug-in protector is quite small - 35 joules, and usually far less, even with the worst probable surge on power service wires. And no service panel protector.

It is westom's religiious belief in earthing.

Unfortunately the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) explains that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing. But since that conflicts with westom's religious belief he ignores it.

Reply to
bud--

I have nothing to do with surge protection other than what I use. If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie.

At least half of these "companies with integrity" make and sell plug-in protectors.

SquareD does not, and makes service panel protectors. Last time I looked SquareD said for their "best" service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use." For the next best protector, SquareD said the connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video equipment, televisions, and computers."

Reply to
bud--

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.