Anyone using a surge suppressor on their washing machines?

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On 5/19/2016 2:24 AM, Roscoe wrote:

Plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge.
The IEEE surge guide (link in trader's post) explains (starting page 30) plug in protectors work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.
Since protection is by limiting the voltage between wires, all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector and all external connections, like coax, must go through the protector.

Suppose you have a house earthed with a ground rod having near miraculous 10 ohms resistance to earth (and ignoring the impedance of te connecting wire), and a 1,000A surge is earthed. The building "ground" system will rise 10,000A above 'absolute' earth potential. In general 70% of the voltage drop away from a ground rod is in the first 3 feet. The earth over 3 feet away will be at least 7,000V from the building 'ground' system.
Much of the protection is that all wiring - power, phone, cable, ... - rises together. That requires a short ground wire from phone and other entry protectors to a common connection point on the power earthing system. (An example of a ground wire that is too long is in the IEEE surge guide starting page 30.)
A surge expert at the NIST has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."
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That was our experience. In places with very long data lines, we actually bonded the cases of the machines together with a large wire that was significantly shorter than the signal wire. You can use ferrite beads to essentially "lengthen" the signal wire but we also looped up some extra data cable through the ferrite. That stopped the problem of losing POS terminals in pool bars every time it rained.
"Ground" is a misnomer anyway. We have documented several volts difference between the electrode systems of buildings that were less than 100' apart. That causes it's own problems. You also have the problem that in why distribution, the PoCo is using earth as a parallel return path to that little neutral wire they have in the distribution system. There is a significant amount of current in those 8ga wires you see going down the pole from a transformer. There is no rod at the end of that wire. it is just tacked to the bottom of the pole before they set it. There is almost 3 amps on this one. (on the single phase distribution line)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/First%20xfmr.jpg
This one is where the 3 phases of the distribution split out. (less than an amp)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/distribution%20pole%20on%20braodway.jpg
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com posted for all of us...

I touched one of these one time on the way to school when I was a kid and got shocked. I didn't tell my parents-they would have just told me to keep my hands off things that don't belong to me... I learned a lesson but I wonder if contributed to my lack of brain power...
--
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On 5/20/2016 10:48 AM, bud-- wrote:

10,000 volts

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I have no ground rod. The grounding is done at the transformer (substation).
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Someone put his batteries in backwards and he just kept coming and coming and coming . . .
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On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 10:56:06 PM UTC-4, Steve Stone wrote:

If a washer needs protection, then so does every household item including c locks, RCD, furnace, recharging phones, and the most critical item during a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to prote ct from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to earth BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.
Does not matter if AC service is overhead or underground. Risk from surges (lightning and other sources) remains. Even underground wires can carry a direct lightning strike into a building. Every wire in every incoming cab le must connect to single point earth ground BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Earth grou nd (not a protector) is the most critical component in every protection 'sy stem'.
What does an adjacent protector do? MOVs might connect that surge from hot wire to neutral or safety ground wires. Now that surge has even more path s to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby appliance . Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' solut ion is not implemented.
All appliances contain robust protection. Your concern is a rare transient that might occur once every seven years. That transient must be connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth BEFORE entering. Otherwise it will go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing adjace nt to an appliance claims to 'block' or 'absorb' that transient. If anythi ng needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.
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On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 11:10:53 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:

a surge - smoke detectors. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to pro tect from destructive surges. Protection means a surge is connected to ear th BEFORE it enters a building. No way around that well proven science.

Sure it remains. But it does matter. With an underground service, the lines leading from the street to the house, the masthead, etc are not present and can't be hit by a direct lightning strike. Less target is better than more target.
Even underground wires can carry a direct lightning strike into a buildin g. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect to single point earth g round BEFORE entering. Otherwise a surge is inside hunting for earth destr uctively via appliances. Earth ground (not a protector) is the most critic al component in every protection 'system'.

ths to find earth ground destructively via a washer or other nearby applian ce. Adjacent protectors can even make damage easier if a 'whole house' sol ution is not implemented.

You can listen to Tom or you can read what the electrical engineers that specialize in surge protection say at IEEE and NIST. Both groups say that point-of-use surge protectors do work, endorse them as part of a tiere d approach and standalone too.
http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/upload/Surges_happen.pdf
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Not as robust as the protection in a quality plug-in surge protector.

earth BEFORE entering. Otherwise it will go hunting for earth destructive ly via appliances. Nothing adjacent to an appliance claims to 'block' or ' absorb' that transient. If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that >protection.
Plug-ins/point-of-use work by clamping all the inputs to the same level.
I'm sure the usual W Tom rant will be forthcoming.
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On Thu, 19 May 2016 08:25:40 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

Tom sells whole house protection and you definitely need it, connected to a good grounding electrode. The only thing Tom disagrees about is whether a point of use protector does anything. I do believe it will damp out locally induced shots that get into the system after it enters the house. That would typically be an EMP that comes from lightning hitting a tree in the back yard. I have survived direct hits on a weather station on my garage ... twice ... but I have pretty good protection in several layers including on the signal line from the weather station..
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On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 2:44:30 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

We don't sell these things. We installed effective protection. Direct lig htning strike without damage were routine. In one venue, all wires were un derground. Since single point earthing was missing, all computers in the b lock house (on surge protectors) were damaged. That strike to earth was a direct strike to underground wires.
I never said plug-in protectors do nothing. Constantly stated is that it o nly does what it claims to do - nothing more. To protect from a type of su rge that typically causes no damage; a transient made irrelevant by robust protection inside every appliance. A plug-in protector does exactly what i t claims to do. It does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive type of surge. Lightning is but one example of that other type of surge. A tree struck by lightning can be a direct connection to incoming conductor s - especially buried wires or metal pipes. EMP did not cause damage. Curr ent in a tree is then passing into buried conductors to causes damage. Usi ng appliances as part of the path that connects to earthborne charges maybe 4 kilometers distant. That same current can be so harmful as to even kill four legged animals.
That current through a struck tree is especially destructive when all incom ing conductors do not enter at a common service entrance. Makes little dif ference whether those conductors are overhead or underground since both nee d same properly earthed protection.
International design standards defined internal protection for electronics long before PCs existed. It is not debatable. Otherwise that other's deni als included numbers - not personal speculation. Surges that are hundreds of joules are routinely converted into rock stable, low DC voltages to safe ty power semiconductors. Tiny joule (plug-in) protectors, doing what its m anufacturer claims, are doing near zero protection. It does exactly what t he manufacturer says it will do.
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On 05/20/2016 02:12 AM, westom wrote:

What does an effective protection system like this typically cost?
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panel is just over $100 Canadian, so likely about $50 street price in the USA. Add the cost of a good ground.if you do not already have it.
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:10:47 AM UTC-4, Just Joe wrote:

Solution does not use products with obscene profit margins from APC, Belkin , Tripplite, Panamax, Monster or Bud. An effective system would feature pr otectors from other companies with integrity such as Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, D elta, Erico, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer. It should be rated at le ast 50,000 amps. These are available in any electrical supply house, and i n both Lowes and Home Depot.
Protector at 50,000 amps defines system reliability (life expectancy) 'over many' surges.
More important is its single point earth ground - the item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Earthing the art of protection an d should have most of your protection. Earthing defines protection during 'each' surge.
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On 5/20/2016 10:48 AM, westom wrote:

I have nothing to do with surge protection other than what I use. If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie.

At least half of these "companies with integrity" make and sell plug-in protectors.
SquareD does not, and makes service panel protectors. Last time I looked SquareD said for their "best" service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use." For the next best protector, SquareD said the connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video equipment, televisions, and computers."
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filtering" - iow, they do not address low energy or high frequency "noise" superimposed on the line - which a good "computer grade protection device" The spec on a relatively low-priced Noma says response time under 1 nanosecond, maximum current spike 39,000 amps, maximum voltage clamping 330 volys, and maximum surge energy 925 joules. It "absorbs transient energy by blocking power vsurges from ac power lines and phone/modem lines" The dual mode UPS filtering specs are: common mode noise rejection >60dB @ 100kHz Transverse mode noise rejection >80dB @ 100kHz Surge protection excedes IEEE 587/ANSI C62 41 Category A abd B
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On 5/21/2016 12:07 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

All service panel protectors are "non-filtering". Filtering would require the protector to be wired in series with the service.
I have seen no evidence that "noise" is a problem. You feed "noise" into a switch-mode power supply and it is removed at the input DC conversion, which is a giant low-pass (zero frequency) filter.

You do not say what this is. Looks like a plug-in protector. "Absorbs" and "blocking" are technically incorrect, but probably more understandable. "Clipping" more accurately describes what happens. All MOV based protectors are fast enough (1 nanosecond).
From the NIST surge expert: "The fact of the matter is that nowadays, most electronic appliances have an inherent immunity level of at least 600 V to 800 V, so that the clamping voltages of 330 V widely offered by [surge protector] manufacturers are really not necessary. Objective assessment of the situation leads to the conclusion that the 330 V clamping level, promoted by a few manufacturers, was encouraged by the promulgation of UL Std 1449, showing that voltage as the lowest in a series of possible clamping voltages for 120 V circuits. Thus was created the downward auction of "lower is better" notwithstanding the objections raised by several researchers and well-informed manufacturers. One of the consequences of this downward auction can be premature ageing of [surge protectors] that are called upon to carry surge currents as the result of relatively low transient voltages that would not put equipment in jeopardy." If peak let-through is other than 330V there needs to be coordination between service panel and plug-in protectors.

I have seen no evidence that noise is a problem

If I am buying a UPS or plug-in protector I want it listed under UL1449, which is the surge protector standard, and means the device has been tested by UL. There are a couple other UL standards for phone and cable protection.
"Exceeds" means the manufacturer is claiming the device meets the standards (which are not UL1449).
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Noma filtered or surge protected power bar

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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 5:10:47 AM UTC-4, Just Joe wrote:

BTW, you should also inspect the protection installed for free by the telco, cable company, and satellite dish. Dish installers are particularly bad. And inspect your 'primary' protection layer as detailed elsewhere.
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 4:12:20 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:

underground. Since single point earthing was missing, all computers in the block house (on surge protectors) were damaged. That strike to earth was a direct strike to underground wires.

You sure have said that and far worse over the years.

sient >made irrelevant by robust protection inside every appliance.
And so it begins. Again what you're saying is contradictory to what the electrical engineer experts in surge protection that wrote both the NIST and IEEE guides clearly say in those guides. Readers are encouraged to read them. They show plug-in type surge protectors being used. Which would of course make no sense if they are irrelevant by "robust" protection inside every appliance. Open up those appliances and you'll find small MOVs. Look inside a decent plug-in and you'll find ones that are many times larger. And notice who provided the links to those guides and who does not.
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On Fri, 20 May 2016 06:21:19 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

Tom is very effective in selling his Polyphaser and he dismisses point of use protectors because he doesn't have them to sell. My experience was built up over many years and thousands of customers in Florida who were not going to power off their computers, ATMs and cash registers every afternoon and unplug them. There is no single solution. Real protection involves many layers of protection. In some cases we went as far as to bond the cases of interconnected equipment together with fat wire because that is what it took to minimize those "interior transients" that Tom thinks are harmless. We also used ferrite beads on signal wires and other methods to mitigate transients that showed up on the load side of the service entrance.
When lightning hit the lightning rod above my weather station, it completely bypassed anything on the service entrance ... but my PC and the station survived.
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wrote:

The surges a plug in surge protector protects from are not the ones that do instant catastrophical damage, but the ones that to damage a little bit at a time - causing things like hard drive failures and accellerated aging of components.

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