anyone here use... heating loops in concrete driveway/sidewalk?

Well, it interests me enough to look. At one of the northern universities I recall them designing the steam tunnel piping to run under all the sidewalks and it worked out very efficiently. Since the steam was being piped to all campus buildings anyway, it made perfect sense to use some of that heat to melt snow.

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer.

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talks about home-based systems.

Heated Driveway Costs Typically, the cost of a heated driveway system is between $12-$21 per square foot. Looking at our data, the average cost of a radiant heating system installation is $3,892, with a low of $1,300 and a high of $7,500 in that range. However, this price does not include the removal of the old driveway or the cost of the new one. Unfortunately, our data doesn't show the cost to remove the old driveway, but we do show the average asphalt paving cost ($4,457) and concrete driveway cost ($3,650). The range of asphalt driveway projects is much greater at $2,000-$25,000 than concrete at $650-$7,091.

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says: Actual Experience Permalink Submitted by Frugal Rich Guy on Thu, 2013-04-18 08:46 I've had one for 20 years. It cost about $5k, because I needed to replace the driveway anyway. I still have to use the snowblower, because I still have to dig out the big pile at the end of the driveway thrown up by the plows. So I remove the bulk of the snow all over the driveway with the snowblower and then use the heat to melt what's left down to bare pavement. Pretty much how others use salt. Costs about $10 per storm.

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says: Costs to Install and Operate Snow Melting Systems - The costs to operate snow melting systems vary widely depending on the size of the area being treated, local utility costs, the average total hours of snowfall, and how fast the system user wants to melt the snow. Obviously, the larger the area being heated and the more snow there is, the higher the operating cost. Also, a system used in a colder climate may require a higher wattage (for electric) or more Btu (for hydronic) than a similar system used in a warmer climate.

Watts Heatway, a supplier of hydronic systems, says annual operating costs range from 12 to 25 cents per square foot. So on average, it would cost $120 to $250 each winter to melt snow off a 1,000-square-foot driveway.

Depending on local utility rates, electric systems may cost even more to operate. EasyHeat, a supplier of electric mats for snow melting applications, says that the seasonal cost to heat a 1,000-square-foot slab at 50 kilowatts will run about $276 in areas of light snowfall (50 inches per year or less) and $692 in areas with average snowfall (50 to 100 inches). Those estimates are based on an average kilowatt cost per hour of

6.92?.

Material and installation costs vary widely too. For Warm Floor Centers electric system, the materials alone run $4 to $6 per square foot, according to Blackburn. Lee Hydronics system runs about $5 to $10 per square foot installed. "The biggest variable is how far the embedded tubing is located from the power source," claims Bailey. The farther away the utilities are, the higher the installation and operating costs.

Reply to
Robert Green
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All the snow from the street will be plowed into the end of your driveway?

- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .

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Reply to
Stormin Mormon

| So I remove the bulk of the snow all over the driveway with the | snowblower and then use the heat to melt what's left down to bare pavement. | Pretty much how others use salt.

That sounds a lot like Granny Clampett's amazing cold cure: Take a spoonful twice a day, drink plenty of fluids, get lots of rest, and your cold will be gone in 7-10 days. :)

I find it's very rare to need salt. Mostly only near the front door when there's drippng and refreezing. The driveway residue pretty much evaporates away in a couple of days.

Reply to
Mayayana

conducted heat does not rise

hot air rises.

Mark

Reply to
makolber

also if you don't care about the cost of the energy, just spray the snow with hot water from a hose and save a ton of installation costs.

Instead of scraping ice off my car windshield, I take a gallon or two of WARM water (not hot or else you may crack the window) and pour it on the window.

Works pretty well and is worth the cost IMO.

Mark

Mark

No installation costs.

Reply to
makolber

I service machines over a wide area near pittsburgh. One day I saw them exeecavating for a home on a big hill. the driveway was steep. seeing this I wondered what the homeowner would do........ the driveway was gravel, and thats hard to shovel.

the next summer I went by and they were execavating the drive way. ended up back in that area frequently...

they dug it out, then added some sort of foam insulation. PEX loops/

back in area the next day the concrete truck was doing its job.

i went back several times, it had snowed. no snow on that driveway

that spring I saw the family fixing up their yard so i stopped and asked how theheatd driveway was doing.

they loved it and said energy costs werent too bad since it just had to be warmer than freezing.

Reply to
bob haller

i think it's a huge waste of energy and resources... but some people have to have the drive clear each time it snows. we're lucky that neither of us has that issue. when it snows hard here we wait it out and then shovel when we can get to it.

one major problem i see is that heating the slab wastes a lot of energy into the ground so it would have to be very well insulated and engineered not to crack and as of yet i've not seen any concrete drive that doesn't eventually crack. one big truck driving on it and away it goes.

can't see such a major expense being worth it. for the money, hire someone or get a decent snow blower (some have heated cabs, radios, etc.).

...

yeah, fresh air, good exercise, etc.

usually we shovel all winter when it does snow. this past winter was rather wimpy, we had only one time that it was bad and it just happened that both of us were sick. so we called someone to plow for us. i did go out and try to shovel it a few times but after about 20 minutes i was done.

in previous years i've shoveled a few feet of snow, just take it in shifts and don't worry about taking a break.

with both of us in relatively decent condition we both like to shovel, but i can see how some folks would have a tough time of it.

my experiences with those few who've put in the heated walks is that they are ok until they get the fuel bill. after that they turn them off.

problems with settling, cracking, wasted energy, etc.

a good snow blower will take care of it with much less expense. finding neighborhood kids willing to make a few $ or handymen with extra time. if i were in the city i'd be out looking for places to shovel myself. digging is one of the best exercises for my back...

songbird

Reply to
songbird

I used to shovel, now I use a machine to blow it. I understand what you are saying about shoveling, but many of us, as we get older, find it more difficult every year. Good exercise at 50 is much less fun at 65 or 70 or more.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Hot air is less dense than cold air so it rises. Heat (energy) travels in every direction where there is less heat seeking equilibrium. Foam will make a huge difference. The frost line here is 48" so that means enough heat is lost for it to freeze. The ground will try to absorb enough heat to replace that loss. That can be very expensive.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Not all, just half. The other half goes to the other side. The plow comes to within about 18" of the curb tossing snow onto my property as it goes.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

This year the snow plow went past the curb, taking out my mailbox and post. The new post has been installed 4' back from the curb and the mailbox is on a 4' arm.

Reply to
Auric Goldfinger

I'd have been tempted to build a much stronger mail box post, battleship armor or some thing.

- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .

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Reply to
Stormin Mormon

As I mentioned, that's not an option for most people.

Around here a snow storm is a fairly rare event. Any snow that falls seldom lasts more than a few days before melting off. Why go through all the work of clearing a driveway, then risk getting in an accident. If you're in a position to take those few days off work, it's always the smarter choice.

Anthony Watson

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Reply to
HerHusband

I used to enjoy it when I was in my 30's, but it sure seems like a lot more work now that I'm in my 50's. :)

20 years ago I always shoveled our 200 foot driveway by hand. With 8" or more of snow it would typically take about four hours to clear the driveway and get the cars ready to go. Obviously, that's not something you do before heading to work. It was reserved for those times when we had to run to town to get groceries or other supplies.

Even with my gas powered snow blower it can take 30-45 minutes to clear our driveway.

Anthony Watson

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Reply to
HerHusband

Our driveway meets the main road on an outside curve. So the snow berm tends to be a bit taller as the snow plow comes around the corner. Worse yet, it becomes a big block of packed ice instead of light fluffy snow. I've broken snow shovels trying to bust my way through that berm.

Anthony Watson

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Reply to
HerHusband

I used a heavy steel I beam buried5 feet below groundlevel. I got tired of replacing mailboxes:(

Reply to
bob haller

A local guy buried a 12" dia 3/8" wall steel pipe filled with concrete 5' deep and mounted his mailbox on top. Worked great till the county plow truck hit it.

Long story short, the county won a $25k judgment against him for damages to the truck...and I don't think his homeowners insurance paid.

Reply to
Mayhem

You're making a pretty big assumption that this would all be conducted heat. It's not. Are you familiar with the thermal properties of soil and why it's been used as an insulator in rammed earth homes and other types of construction? It's because soil does NOT behave thermally like a liquid or a metal, it's actually fine grains of material surrounded by millions of tiny *air* pockets.

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Compare the thermal conductivity of soil to some other materials and you'll see it's more insulator than conductor

Thermal Conductivity

- k - W/(m K)

Glass, wool Insulation 0.04 Glycerol 0.28 Gold 310 Granite 1.7 - 4.0 Gravel 0.7 Ground or soil, very moist area 1.4 Ground or soil, moist area 1.0 Ground or soil, dry area 0.5 Ground or soil, very dry area 0.33 Gypsum board 0.17 Silver 429 Tin Sn 67 Titanium 22 Tungsten 174

That's even before we consider thermal equilibrium and which direction heat would move in if the ground below was warmer than the surface of the driveway, which it almost always is.

Source:

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Reply to
Robert Green

So, the plow guy hits the mail box, and it's the HO's liability? On what planet?

- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .

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Reply to
Stormin Mormon

HerHusband wrote: ...

if i don't have to get out for any reason i'll leave the last few feet of the drive alone until they finally plow the second or third time. this way they won't push so much snow into the end of the driveway. (i.e. remove the pressure and the flow will come in, so leave some snow and more stays out).

for breaking up the frozen piles i have a nice straight shovel made for trenching that will make it into chunks to move.

sometimes it seems like they wait until i have the drive clear before they come along and fill it back in again... usually right after i get my clothes changed and get into the middle of something else.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

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