All the hoopla over incandecent bulbs...

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dicko wrote:

It is a big push because it is a tool that actually works are reducing the problem. It certainly is not the whole answer, but add together enough small answers and you may just maybe reduce the problem.
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Joseph Meehan

Dia \'s Muire duit
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You would save a lot of greenhouse emissions by excluding conventionally produced meat from your diet. Tremendous amounts of land and energy is used to grow food for livestock. Conventional corn/ beans agriculture also erodes the soil and introduces harmful ag chemicals into the ground water. Wild game and grass fed livestock excluded of course.
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wrote:

You are absolutely correct. The "efficiency" of of growing animals is about the same as that of a gasoline engine: 33%. Which means you lose, from the gitgo, about 2/3 of the food calories the land can produce in grains etc. A very very important issue, that will never make through the media. Not to mention the absolute barbarism of slaughter houses, the Hitler/Stalin/Saddam-esque cruelty involved in livestock raising, etc.
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Mr. P.V.\'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
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Proctologically Violated wrote:

Except there are millions upon millions of acres used for grazing that would not or could not be used for grain......thus allowing food production where none would exist......There are many more millions of acres used for hay, alfalfa etc. that are not ideal or useful for other food production.
We as well have no significant or appreciable need for more grain production as the world has never been as dependably well fed.....optimum calorie production is really only significant at the sustenance existence level.....thankfully we are not. Rod
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I disagree with *all* of these assertions, from a variety of povs, much too lengthy to go into on ahr. Two points, however. 1. There are myriads of other problems with cattle production. 2. You choose to ignore efficiency issues simply because they are not problems *now*?
How Bush-ian. Think.... oil??????
AND, That assumes they are NOT problems now, which I also disagree with. Chemical fertilizers are about as good a long term solution for crops as Lunesta is for sleep disorder.
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Mr. P.V.\'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
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Proctologically Violated wrote:

Balderdash! I'm in Texas and in some cattle-grazing areas you can't grow dirt! Even the lizards are stunted.
Do you think cattle are feeding in places similar to Kentucky horse farms? Bah! There's ten feet between each pitiful clump of vegetation! Watch your next "Western" closely - are the cowboys standing in fields of clover? Are they having shoot-outs in the strawberry patch? Do the cattle stampede through forests of mighty redwoods?
IT'S DIRT!
Raw, dry, sterile, DIRT. And not very good dirt, either.
But to the basic question: Vegetables are not food. Vegetables are what food eats.
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Yeah, and if god dint want us to eat animals, he wouldna made them taste so good, right?
Fukn Texans don't know shit except the roster of who's being executed this week.
No doubt some land is less arable than others, and in fact some might only be good for cattle grazing.
But are you the agronomist who's done research on what can/cannot be grown on less arable lands? Does that mean that cattle STILL should be bred, even if grass/hay etc is all that can be grown?
Well, yeah, iffin yer a texan.
Think soy protein.
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Mr. P.V.\'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
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On Jun 13, 3:52 pm, "Proctologically Violated" >

I think soy protein is fit for animals to eat.
Cindy Hamilton
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Who said "cattle"?
*Goats* can be raised on land that's practically useless for any other purpose, and in fact are *far* more efficient than cattle at converting vegetable matter into meat.
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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FYI... I wasn't literally meaning that we should switch cooking technologies. I was just trying to make the point that lightbulbs aren't the only thing we could be doing.
Personally, banning incandecents is dumb. As long as electricity is cheap, folks will waste it. That's the real problem. People aren't paying enough for it.
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Yes, that is true. You only have to look at large apartment buildings in NYC that have common electric, vs. those that have individual meters for each apt. At night, the common metered buildings look like the Empire State building on July 4th, whilst the individually metered buildings look almost abandoned.
But, the problem with your solution is that the people who can afford it least will be hit hardest--as usual.
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Mr. P.V.\'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
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Doesn't that sign say "Please don't feed the trolls"?
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Well let us know how it works out okay?
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Eigenvector wrote:

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minimize spam. Our true address is of the form snipped-for-privacy@prodigy.net.
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going to try it. Sure would be nice if he did though.
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Since most ovens are not electric and on any given moment there are usually planty of lightbulbs and no ovens running, I think lighting is something to go after more than ovens.
The biggest consumer of electricity is electric motors in climate control equipment and refrigeration equipment - compressor motors, fan motors and blower motors.
Lighting is second to that group. It appears to me that third place is electric heating.
I would think that the cost of electric stoves makes a lot of people do much of their cooking with microwaves and convection ovens more than electric stoves anyway.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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NewScientist magazine recently ran an article on how long the minerals in the Earth will last. It had this sentence in it
"He estimates that Zinc cold be used up by 2037, Both indium and Hafnium - which is increasingly important in computer chips - could be gone by 2017, and Terbium - used to make the green phosphors in fluorescent lights could run out before 2012."
So the way I read this is that with the current demand for Terbium, we stop making fluorescent lights in 5 years. With the increased demand from CFLs, its some time sooner. Is that right? In 5 years we'll be sitting in the dark and in 10 years we wont even be able to watch TV while sitting in the dark.
I think I'm gonna make some large investments in the recycling industry.
dickm
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