Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad at once?)

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:32:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

I just realized, that's *not* a power supply board!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11013239006_7ef98f0bb4_o.gif
It says it's a "D135A Low Battery Disconnect", part number 79-04360401 (where the last 4 and last 1 might be another digit).
Googling, I find these datasheets: http://resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf http://www.boschsecurity.com.br/_archivos_productos_sitios_la/documentos/intrusion/EN/d135a_description_0910_en.pdf
Which say: "The D135A works with compatible control panels to protect the battery from deep discharge in the event of an extended AC power outage. Disconnects the control panel from the battery when the battery level drops to 9.5 VDC."
I find an installation guide here, which explains that the sticky tape is because the module is supposed to be stuck onto the top of the battery: http://tinyurl.com/p74he4t
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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

Wow. Gotta try that trick!
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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

When I saw that suggestion, I ran a search at Grainger for D2212B: http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery212b
But, nothing came up.
Then I searched alarm systems, and only the sensors came up. I didn't call them though.
I'll call 'em tomorrow, because, well, because huckleberries are found where they are, and not where I might think they are.
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If the alarm battery is more than 4 or 5 years old, there's a good chance it won't support any kind of load. They are cheap - I'd replace it.
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I don't have experience with your set up. just trying to conceive of the transient conditions leading up to the failure to better understand where to look and what to replace. Wasn't that sequence a possible scenario when your AC mains fail? Or did opening your 200A house breaker somehow supply a 'no-load' to your generac and thus you put some really high voltage places you didn't want? Or, switching back and forth did something. Or, yeah, tough, two things broke - it happens. Aren't the built-in fuse links inside those transformers in the primary, not the secondary?
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On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:35:36 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Here it says for my ELK-TRG1640 transformer: • Auto-Resetting (PTC) Fused Secondary
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg1640-ac-transformer-16-5-vac-45-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal
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On 11/22/2013 12:35 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Most alarm systems will beep error codes such as AC power failure and if you have a user manual, it should show you how to read the error codes from the keypad. The error codes stay in static memory until erased along with the time and date making the alarm tech's repair job a lot easier. I seem to recall that small module connected between the battery and alarm system being a battery saver that will disconnect the battery when it gets to a low enough voltage. The blue tubular looking component on the small module is an electrolytic capacitor that could be blown due to the swollen end. You can bypass the module and the alarm system should power up. It's very possible that the blown electrolytic capacitor could have shorted out and blown the fusible link inside the transformer. Try bypassing the module and see if the alarm will power up. You may be able to replace the 22 year old blue electrolytic capacitor then replace the wall wart transformer and the darned old system should work. It will operate without the module connected between the battery and alarm system. I'm assuming from looking at your pictures that you are not monitored by an alarm company and it's just a local alarm. ^_^
TDD
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Replace the transformer. Fry's or Home Depot, off of Hamilton Ave West of Hwy 17 will be the closest location, other than some hard to find places in Campbell, to you.
Move that rat nest to the right and look at the lower right area of the circuit board. There should be a glass fuse close to where the power leads terminate on the terminal strip. This fuse might have a white casing. Pull the fuse and check it. Ohm meter will read zero if good, or 0l (zero l - Open line). If you know how to activate the continuity test of your Fluke, the tone gives a better indication since the Fluke might pick up your finger tips (it is a pain to get the leads on those little buggers) and goof ball around for a bit.
Buy some six inch long cable ties and clean that mess up. :-)
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On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:09:53 -0700, Nightcrawler®

Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.
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On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.
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Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad at once?) NO
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Hot-Text wrote:

As well as float charging battery.
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HWY 17 turns into 880 at 280.
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On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif
This makes no sense to me; but I'm not an EE.
Does this (repeatable) information above tell us anything about the power supply or battery?
Note: This dent in the capacitor was due to it being pressed down against the transistor (I pushed it away):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11012334393_cd136e612d_o.gif
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<snip> What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the capacitor?
What connects to this connector?
What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.
So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or vice versa?
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On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif
Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif
All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get 0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.
To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low for the car charger gauge to show any movement).
After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at 13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):
Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the alarm circuit board).
1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif
2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif
3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif
4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif
I don't understand that.
5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif
6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif
So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?
Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?
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Dud, it looks to me like you got a bad module.. the Cap is bad just to look at, and since you need the relay to close to pass the voltage to the terminals, anything in that hold-in circuit that’s bad will disable that.. discard the module, if you still need a low voltage disconnect feature, try http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-965-low-battery-cutoff-and-master-power-switch the Elk 965 will disconnect the power when voltage drops below its threshold ..
rts
"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif
Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif
All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get 0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.
To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low for the car charger gauge to show any movement).
After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at 13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):
Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the alarm circuit board).
1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif
2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif
3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif
4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif
I don't understand that.
5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif
6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif
So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?
Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

First of all, did you check the battery by hooking up a 12V automotive bulb to really see it is holding good charge at 12V? Secondly remove one leg of diodes and check them, one may be Zener type. do the same with capacitor. Remove any two legs off the circuit and check that transistor. The other K1 is a relay, you can check it same way. Then go to next step which you are trying to do now. First thing first. If you can find a URL for schematic, it'll be lot easier to TS.
No power supply on your work bench? If so you can use it as well. I have a lab. grade power supply with several commonly used voltage o/p. Very handy item to have.
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On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

It seems that all three test bad: 1. The transformer has an open secondary 2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap 3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC
I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the Radionics D2212B alarm system board.
The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif
Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

It's more likely that there were problems, and the situation wouldn't let it start working again.
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