Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad at once?)

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On 11/25/2013 07:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

LOL!
Some of the numbnutz in this group think they have 2 phase 240v service.
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Alex scrit:

It's split phase.
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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.
This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally): http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId 6 Nobody will sell them to him. Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.
So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.
I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer since I don't.
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

What if the new board blows up when replaced? Are planing to protect it some how from that occuring? BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows? Can you tell which lead is cathode or anode?
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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:07:16 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

That's why I only want to spend the $104 to replace it. It *does* have overload circuit protection besides.

I've done plenty of smoke tests in my life. This will be one of them.

Heh heh ... here is a board I built many years ago to test impedence (j omega stuff). I wired a diode to house current! You'll notice the diodes. Particularly, you'll notice that the nichrome wire resistor has the same impedance as the the capacitor. (I couldn't find an inductor of a large enough size.) FRONT:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11061412564_d241b67f1e_o.gif
BACK:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/11061387306_4b928f65c1_o.gif
Also notice this circuit, where I used 555 timers (I think that's what I used), way back in the 80's, to measure capacitance and resistance simply by counting the flash rate ... FRONT:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7362/11061411704_cf3e84efa3_o.gif
BACK:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/11061410864_5dfa50a070_o.gif
I did those circuits in the early 80's but, of course I know about the shape of the diode curve and which is the anode and which is the cathode.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03256.png
Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener... If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

There is a hell of a lot that you don't know. None of these give you accurate information about a capacitor.
--
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have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
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On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

:)
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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi Tony, The new power transformer solved (almost) all the problems!
As soon as it arrived, I tested its output voltage (20 VAC), which within the expected range:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/11078019855_b27612e531_o.gif
The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw) was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and 1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably not important.
Even so, the moment I plugged in the power transformer, the D2212B circuit and the control panels came to life. There is 13.6V at the battery terminals without the battery plugged in.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/11078202723_a6deb1394f_o.gif
I think, in the end, the only things that were bad were: 1. The transformer secondary blew out 2. The D135A capacitor seems to have been overheated 3. The battery is apparently bad
Luckily, all those are easy to fix!
I'm not sure *how* to read what the control panel is trying to tell me since it only says "Call for Service", but, I'm pretty sure it's trying to tell me the (bad) battery isn't connected.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/11078125064_68d907e787_o.gif
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/11078125174_95cb163704_o.gif
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Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom readings.
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Nightcrawler® wrote:

Hi, That's why I still keep and use old Simpson 260. Probably I use it more than Fluke day in day out.
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Oh, yeah. I miss my old Simpson, and even my old Fluke 73 (damned thief). When tuning a Woodward 2301 or 2301A (or similar device), digital meters are to flakey to easily accomplish the task. I managed, without, but once in range of desired output eyeballing and a feel comes into play. Having a crappy fuel source really adds another layer of frustration. The dumb-ass plant operators that muck the settings up bring on the urge to punch something in the throat. :-)
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On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but, maybe it's for other applications.
If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.
The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is the terminal sizes.
In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).
But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells. For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit: http://www.surveillance-video.com/elk-06120.html?productid=elk-06120&channelid OME
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As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue. The anal retentive types will disagree, but if you have larger spade terminals, they will work on the smaller spade terminals that some batteries have.
*I presume you already know the current battery voltage, if not, check and make note of it*
In your case, test the board output (bypass the battery cut-out board--come directly off of alarm board) of the alarm board. Power system off (unplug transformer). Plug battery in and power system back on. Check the voltage at the battery terminals. 13.5 to 14.7 is an acceptable reading (anything 13 or above will work, just takes a bit more time to recharge and will not give a true full charge).
Note: Most charging systems do not give grief when a battery is disconnected while the system is powered up. I only state to turn off/disconnect power as a caveat. Make certain that neither lead comes in contact with anything else. Wrap each lead with tape or protect with non-conductive shell.
Unplug positive lead of battery and unpowered system. Let stand for half an hour and check the voltage of the battery. If above initial low reading, and steady, your battery probably is still good. You did start out at 13.5, originally.
Plug battery back in and power up system and let charge overnight. Unplug the battery and leave in place all day. I do believe I do not need to repeat myself as to how to do this. After a minimum of six hours, check the voltage of the battery. Is it 13.5?
Of course, you may check the charging voltage in 1 hour increments to verify that the charging system is lowering the charge voltage over time. Cooking a battery is not a good idea.
I still recommend buying a small U.P.S. to filter the input to the system, and providing additional run time. Someone here posted a link to a battery cut-out unit that was universal. Get it and install it. Don't mess with making the entire system OEM. Make it work and, if possible, work better.
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On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:34:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

This is all good information. I will order a battery, and a new battery-protection board, which, I'm pretty sure, should solve the remaining problems.
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I don't think we have proved the battery protection board is bad yet.
You should connect it up to the panel and see if the relay will pull in and that you have DC voltage on the red and black battery leads.
Then install the new battery and see what the charging current looks like.
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Danny D'Amico wrote:

There are two sizes of terminals in that current range. 3/16" wide and 1/4" wide The 3/16" is common in low current applications, and the 1/4" in UPS.
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

You need ceter tap to do a full wave rectification with two diodes vs. 4 without center tap which is bridge rectification.

You did not have to use exact OEM one, any x-former with same spec. would do. Only matter is physical dimension for fitment on the board.

Again no meed to get OEM one. Take the battery to battery shop, they will give replacement with same rating and size. If terminal is different size, you can just solder wires onto it. Or replace clips on the wires.

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Danny D'Amico wrote:

Good for you. From the beginning I told you to replace x-former, check all the components on the board and test the battery with automotive 12V bulb. Maybe you have selective hearing or reading?, LOL! You are close to finish line now.

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On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:54:09 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Well, actually, if I were a tech, I'd probably would have had the transformer on hand, and therefore, it would have taken an hour to get to this point.
As it was, I *immediately* ordered the transformer the moment I disconnected and tested it, because it clearly had a blown secondary.
In fact, contrary to what you may assume, I probably even ordered that well before you said to do it (it was blown, after all), so, it's not at all that I have "selective hearing"; it's just that it took a few days for the parts to arrive.
Had the parts arrived sooner, we'd be at this point sooner.
Anyway, I am now searching for the right battery to buy.
I'm not sure if they have a "series" size, like car batteries do, where batteries within a given series fit (e.g., side terminal, top terminal, etc.).
Anyway, the parts I either ordered or will order are: 1. Transformer (received) 2. Battery (to be ordered) 3. D135A battery-protection circuit (after testing further)
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