Alarm Stays On

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Here's a weird one. I have an old Ademco hard-wired alarm panel which has been running well since 1985. Recently it went into alarm condition but would not shut off. (For a momentary opening of the closed loop, it's supposed to shut off after 12 minutes. The closed loop contains a Dual Tec PIR/microwave combo unit which has a very low false alarm rate. When it false alarmed recently, I forgave it, but the alarm stayed on so I assumed it was "latching" due to some failure and not shutting off. I replaced it with a second unit, and watched the LED's carefully. The new one was clearly working properly. On testing the system, I simulated an alarm condition and watched the LEDs turn on and off, so I knew the OC was momentary. I even checked the output with a meter. The alarm did not turn off after 12 minutes!!!!! I then did a manual open and reclose of the loop with the Dual Tec out of the circuit. The alarm cut off after 12 minutes. What is going on here? The Ademco recognizes the opening of the loop but does not recognize the closing, but *only* when the closing is done by the Dual Tec and not manually. Ideas? I'd say the relay on the DT is not re-closing properly but the other unit apparently did the same thing. The panel must think it sees something other than a closed loop! A real hair tearer. (Thanks for help.) P.S. The loop has a 2000 ohm terminating resistor.
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I should mention that without alarm condition, when the alarm is first set, the loop with the Dual Tec indicates that the loop is properly closed.
wrote:

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frank1492 wrote:

Each time the sensor is tripped, a new alarm is generated - thus adding another 12 minutes. You probably have a Vista-10 or 4110XM both have an adjustable siren time-out. It also has a "runaway" feature so a faulty sensor with not alarm after "x" amount of triggers.
All this is done via the installer's level of programming. If your system is monitored, you should not attempt to program it or you may mess up something important. If you give me the exact model number (on the circuit board label) I'll shoot you an installer's manual. Hopefully the panel is not 'locked', so only the alarmco can access it. Most are not locked.
Also, you will need a 6160 or 6139 alpha keypad to see what you're doing while programming. Hopefully you already have one in the system, rather than the cheaper fixed-English display.
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Those must be much newer units. There is nothing digital in this one.' Ademco 1023-12 2/85..
On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:33:38 -0500, G. Morgan

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Yeah, so its not like old age could be a part of it ?
Did you check the end-of-line resistor to see if it is still 2K ohms ?
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On 6/7/2012 10:10 PM, Evan wrote:

Evan is on to something but I would suspect that an electrolytic capacitor in the circuitry is out of spec due to age and repeated voltage spikes over the years can cause other parts to fail because the tiny damages add up over the years resulting in an eventual malfunction. If any of the electrolytic capacitors are swollen or leaking, that would be the place to look. ^_^
TDD
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On 6/7/2012 9:55 PM, frank1492 wrote:

Mr Morgan knows his alarm systems, he does it for a living and I installed and serviced a lot of security systems back in the 80's. Most alarm systems are a hybrid of digital and analog electronics and the older systems have a higher parts count which can create more failure points making them less reliable. ^_^
TDD
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Please remember that opening the loop momentarily without the DT in place caused the panel to perform normally. (Will attempt to replicate that several times.)
On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 05:38:06 -0500, The Daring Dufas

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frank1492 wrote:

Oh man... That is a dinosaur. You need a new panel and keypad(s).
There are no programmable anti-false alarm features in that one. No way to adjust response time for 'jigglers', or cross-zoning, or pulse count.
I would recommend another Ademco (Honeywell) panel, Vista-15P or 20P. You can get the best deals on eBay. Make sure at least one keypad is a 6160 alpha display. If you plan on adding wireless sensors get a 6160RF keypad, it acts as a transceiver as well as a keypad.
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Thanks for your advice. Your knowledge is much more advanced than mine as I have not kept up with the technology. Based on what I see as my needs at present, however, the simplest possible technology will suffice. I'm sure you will be critical of my complacence but for now all I want is something to monitor a single disguised Dual Tec (or other similar unit) which is located in the kitchen of my summer home, to offer some rudimentary protection when I am away for extended periods, including winter. This will probably work only for a certain type of amateur intruder who will not know "all the tricks" and exit when they are surprised by an alarm. At present, I have no perimeter protection installed, though of course I should. Nor am I connected to a monitoring service or dialer. The old Ademco did just fine for many years. All it has to do is reliably turn on the alarm in response to an open loop, and terminate it after a preset time. If I find the panel is at fault here I will consider the Vista. The 1032 has no keypad, only an entry-exit delay capability which is really all I have ever felt I needed. Today I examined the opening and closure of the relay on the Dual Tec. When closed, the panel sees about 1976 ohms in the loop, which is identical to what it sees with the DT out of the loop. This second DT has been properly wired and double checked, as was the first one. In limited observation, I know of two instances in which the alarm did not shut off when the loop was opened by the DT and two in which the alarm did shut off when the loop was momentarily opened manually. Of course I do not regard that as an adequate sample. I need to get away from this project for awhile but will report back when I have examined many more instances of each condition. At present my gut tells me that the DT is not being activated over and over during the alarm period, though I will look for that too. With that ruled out, I will then try to rule out the panel, though all signs would then point to that as the culprit. Thanks to you and the many others who have commented. Over time I will look to set up a better system, but my curiosity is now really focused on determining whether the 1032 is truly defective. I have downloaded and am studying the Vista manual. Frank
On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 18:28:19 -0500, G. Morgan

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Technically in this most simple application, why do I need a keypad at all for either the 15p or 20p? Can't I just set the alarm and leave the house (PIR not pointed to detect my motion) as per my 1032? And even with perimeter protection, can't I just use the entry/exit delay feature as I could with my 1032? Thanks so much for all your time.
wrote:

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frank1492 wrote:

All new panels need keypads attached to the system. You don't have to use it for arming/disarming because it does have a key switch zone.
They have come a long way. Using the keypad you can choose "Away" (all zones armed), or "Stay" (arm the perimeter, shunt the interior detectors), also if you are sleeping and no-one is expected to come in you can arm so the delay doors turn to instant for kick-in situations.
http://www.security.honeywell.com/hsc/solutions/residential/security/index.html
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frank1492 wrote:
<snip>

Okay, the EOL's for that one are 2k ohms so that is good. I don't know the tolerance on that panel, but up to +-100 ohms is usually fine. Let's take the motion det. out of the circuit, (power down system) then manually short the two detection wires - Should be damn close to zero depending on the length and wire gauge.
Then do a test with the circuit open, make sure it's @ infinity and also check each wire to ground to look for a ground fault.
Repeat with the power wires. A 500 millisecond power fail will trip it.
I'm wondering if the cables are chewed by critters, or maybe a loose splice somewhere causing intermittent falses. How hard would it be to run a new cable?
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I will do the ground fault tests when I get back after June 19. Please state again very specifically at what points to ground I am supposed to be checking. The wire is very short and not spliced. The EOL resistors are soldered. As noted it has been a very long time since this panel was examined in detail. I am not sure about the status of the ground connection to the panel, but I know you will say that's critical?? Thanks again.
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 02:07:23 -0500, G. Morgan

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frank1492 wrote:

Are there extra resistors in the can, or can you go to Rat Shack and get a couple? I've seen many a solder joint broken.
How hard would it be just to run a new cable and install a new 2k EOLR? It's gonna be the panel, cable, or detector. I think panel. How about just running a new temporary exposed wire to eliminate any wiring issues if you can't easily run a new one nicely?

Technically, the panel is supposed to be grounded to it's own ground-rod and bonded with power/Telco/cable grounds too.
I have seen more panels destroyed by lightning that were 'grounded' (more like an antenna). To do it right, the ground wire has to be a very short distance to the rod (buried deep enough) with no 90 degree turns. IMO it's better to have no ground connection then a virtual antenna for lightning.
You can take a grounded extension cord to the panel for a reference to earth (jam one lead of the meter in the ground slot, then measure each conductor to that). None of the conductors should show any resistance or dead-short, only wide-open.
I still think you just need to replace that thing. I would not even work on it if you were my customer, I'd upgrade it for free if you were a monitoring customer. I don't know where you live, but some jurisdictions have hefty fines for multiple (as few as two) false alarms.
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On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 21:25:25 -0500, G. Morgan

Not an issue since the system is not monitored. But then you knew that since the OP has stated that at least twice.
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On Jun 9, 11:15pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

LOL... Monitoring has nothing to do with the local AHJ imposing fines for false alarms... A false alarm can be called in by angry neighbors who have to listen to the system go off for whatever reason who are tired of it, a do-gooder passer-by who reports an alarm sounding to the police, or a bored police officer who just happens to be in the right place to hear the alarm when it is going off... False alarms need not be reported by a monitoring company...
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I really appreciate all your time on this. After additional testing after June 19 I will report back. I really don't think the resistors are bad because I have checked them with an ohmmeter, nor are the solder joints bad. The panel sees about 2000 ohms with the loop closed, and 0 ohms with it open. That 2000 ohms shows with the loop closed with no devices, or with it closed with the PIR in the loop in non-alarm state. The theory that the relay on the PIR may have corroded contacts may have some merit, but that would make two units identically bad, and the meter test shows no issues. I will use the brute force test and look at 10 instances, 5 with manual open-reclose and 5 with the PIR doing the same thing. If all 5 with manual open-reclose cause the alarm to shut off properly and those with the PIR don't, I would suspect the PIR. I'd then check to rule out repeated alarm conditions, and if none found junk the PIR. If there's no pattern I'd junk the panel.
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 21:25:25 -0500, G. Morgan

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wrote:

Sounds like a plan.
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The only other reasonable explanation is that the NEW devices are not compatible with your specific OLD alarm panel... Since the problms began with the replacement of the sensors, and you have supposedly ruled out any other causes within the panel, it seems your choice of devices is the issue... Switch back to a simple motion sensing device and see if the "won't reset" problem goes away...
If you are dead set in keeping the specific devices you have it sounds like you might have to replace your alarm controller to accommodate them...
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