Adjusting Storm Door Closures

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I just installed a storm door this weekend. The door came from the manufacturer (ProVia) with dual closures, one for the top and one for the bottom.
Here's the issue:
I can adjust the closures to smoothly close and latch the door with the entry door open, but it "just misses" latching when the entry door is closed.
It doesn't matter if I use the winter or summer hole in the door-end of the closure or if the window is lowered exposing the retractable screen. It just misses latching by about 1/8" if the entry door is closed.
If I want it to latch (by itself) with the entry door closed, I have to set the closures so that it slams when the entry door is open.
If I adjust the strike plate outward, then the door doesn't seal as tightly against the weather stripping.
How do I find the happy medium between all of these variables?
BTW...since this storm door has retractable screens, there is really no correct "seasonal" setting for the closure pin. The screens might be used one day but not the next and could be exposed from 1/2" to 1/2 the door. I'm using the "storm in" hole since odds are there will always be more window than screen.
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Sounds like air is being trapped between the entry door and storm door when trying to close, thus slowing down the storm door. Try pulling down the screen a bit to have air escape when closing the door, or perhaps adjust the weatherstripping at the bottom to have some air escape.
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Mikepier wrote:

Had friend with same problem and trapped air was the answer.
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Thanks for the response.
I know what the "cause" is - obviously it's air pressure.
re: "Try pulling down the screen a bit to have air escape when closing the door"
As I mentioned in my OP, it doesn't help if I lower the window and expose the screen. The storm still doesn't latch. Even the exposed screen creates enough "back-pressure" to prevent the door from latching.
Besides, what would be the point of "letting the air escape" either through the screen or through the bottom weather stripping?
I want the door to latch so that it seals against the weather stripping. If I create an opening, don't I just defeat the purpose of the weather stripping? That's just as inefficient as the door not latching.
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Mikepier wrote:

...thereby negating the insulating value of the storm door ;-)
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If this is for your personal home the just misses" latching when the entry door is closed is the proper setting and about the best you will achieve.
You just need to remember to pull it fully closed each time. For rental property adjust it to a light slam because they will never take the time to pull it closed.
I can not even guess how many of these things I have installed over the years and that is always the choice you have to make.
One thing to keep in mind is to test it from the same open position each time. The amount of the open affects the closer operation.
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Thanks C.
re: "You just need to remember to pull it fully closed each time."
Or push it. ;-)
That sucks. I want to walk out of the house, pull the entry door closed, push the electronic lock button and walk away. I don't want to have to force the storm door closed against the closures or wait until they do their thing and then give the door a tiny push to latch it.
Thanks anyway.
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re: "You just need to remember to pull it fully closed each time."
Or push it. ;-)
That sucks. I want to walk out of the house, pull the entry door closed, push the electronic lock button and walk away. I don't want to have to force the storm door closed against the closures or wait until they do their thing and then give the door a tiny push to latch it.
You'll never achieve closure with this closer issue. It's just the way they work. Mebbe a rubber flap over the outside of a suitably sized hole it the door to relieve trapped air. Being on the outside of the opening, it would resist air invasion from the outside.
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In typed:

Most doors, especially those with dual closers, pretty explicitly explain the process. Also, at the end of the "throw", as the door approaches closed, there is more pressure exerted; are you so far off you're not getting to that point? The comments about the trapped air of course are also all valid. I find that it may take mine several seconds to actually latch if they don't make it before the inside door closes, but they do make it. If there isn't enough natural air escape, create some so the air can go outdoors. Makes it easier to close doors, too, from the inside.
HTH,
Twayne`
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re: "are you so far off you're not getting to that point? "
I'm not sure what you are asking.
As I said in my OP:
"I can adjust the closures to smoothly close and latch the door with the entry door open, but it "just misses" latching when the entry door is closed."
What "point" are you asking me if I'm so far off from?
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In typed:

Sorry. If you have the length of the cylinder arm too short, it'll never get to retract to the "almost closed" point where the increase in pull pressure increases to pull the last bit for the latching of the door. I don't know that all closers are like that, but the ones in this house do, even the old ones.
Travel of the rod in the cylinder from open to closed.
Normal pull strength Increased pull strength |---------------------------------------------|------|
If the door is only partly opened or the rod isn't pulled out far enough the increased pull area isn't reached. Also, with the top closer, be sure it's strength is set to be the same or as close as you can to the middle one. You set that of course with the screw in the end of the housing.
HTH,
Twayne`
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re: "If you have the length of the cylinder arm too short"
I installed the closures per the instructions - set the hold open latch just beyond the protrusions on the arm, mount the jamb side bracket anywhere for 1/4" to 1" from the closed door (I'm at about 1/2"), attach the door end bracket wherever it lands on the closed door.
I'm not sure how I would make the "cylinder arm too short".
re: "with the top closer, be sure it's strength is set to be the same or as close as you can to the middle one. "
It's Top and Bottom. no middle. In any case, both screws are set the same.
re: "...to pull the last bit for the latching of the door"
You are aware that the problem only exists with the entry door closed, right? It latches fine with the entry door open.
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Have you had anyone look at it besides yourself. Frankly, it just doesn't make much sense that the slight air resistance of the open screen keeps the door from latching.
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wrote:

No, I haven't had anyone else look at it, and I don't think I'm going to call/pay a contractor to adjust my closures for me.
I can get the door to latch with the window open, in fact, I can even get the door to latch with the window closed. It just that when I do that, it closes a little to loudly when the entry door is full open. Maybe I'm just being too anal.
I think that rather than have someone look at my door, I'll look at few other and see how they operate. Maybe I just need to accept a little more "noise" with the entry door open. I'd like to hear nothing more than the "click" of the latch, but that may be too much to ask for.
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In typed:

I'll bet you simply have the door latch set too perfectly. The door has to absolutely close tight before it can latch. Move the latch for an earlier (looser) latching. It'll latch, still allow the air to escape after the latch, and be pulled in against the jambs by the closers when the air has escaped.
HTH,
Twayne`
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I'll try adjusting the latch (actually the strike plate) although when I tried that, the door didn't seal as tightly against the weather stripping as I would like.
You also mentioned you didn't like bottom closures. There is no option for a middle closure with this door, since both panes move. In addition, both panes have retractable screens so there is no option as to the placement of the bottom closure since the instructions say not to mount it through the screen housing (duh!) or the kickplate.
The top closure has about a 1" range on the storm door itself, but if you go too high, the jamb-side bracket hits the top of the entry door jamb. You are pretty much limited as to where you can mount the closures from a "up-down" perspective.
http://www.proviadoor.com/content/uploads/633912159631787E17-xl.png
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You need to become a little deaf, then the closing noise won't bother you. Every door that I have had, and that's plenty in 70+ years, makes some noise when closing with enough force to override the latch and the (airtight) seals that the door presses against when it is fully closed.
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In typed:

Well, I've made it happen to myself during an installation. The seals are normally all twisted and take time to straighten, but this one was perfect, plus the bottom piece that's used to make the bottom fit perfectly had a seal on it too. I just knocked the bottom extender up about a sixteenth and that took care of it not latching. You're right though, the situation isn't normally what one would expect. Also I don't like bottom closers: I always use the center and top mounts. Hmm, wonder if that's what's going on? Even the expensive doors will bow slightly so if the latch is too perfectly located, or tight, then it could well not latch! I'll bet that's it: The latch needs to be set to allow an earlier latching of the door. More I think, the more sure I am. Hope he's reading this.
HTH,
Twayne`
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hr(bob) snipped-for-privacy@att.net wrote:

I've seen it here and other places also. Air can stop a lot. I had a piece of glass about 1.5'x4' and could let it fall from upright to flat on the wood floor. I did it probably a hundred times to scare people. Let it go and the air cushions it as it approaches the floor. Hardly made a sound when it hit, just a whoosh or air. Never broke. Accidentally dropped one on concrete the same way, it didn't break but I didn't risk trying it again on purpose.
Two doors with good seals multiply the air resistance exponentially. On my problem doors they did have friction where they were rubbing on the frame. With the main door open the storm door had enough speed to overcome the friction. Fixed where they rubbed and that took care of that. The problem was just multiplied by closing the main door, not actually caused by it.
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In typed:

Yes, I'm aware of the closed inner door situation. That was why I also mentioned allowing an air escape thru the storm to the outside. You would not have the extension problem I mentioned because your installation comments were quite clear. I just know I've seen people not pay attention to where they mounted the arm to the door; you had to open the door to its absolute farthest possible position for it to latch the door. But your description sounds completely correct, plus you followed a set of instructions you didn't mention before. Sorry if I wasted ether.
Twayne`
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