Adjacent tiles lift after repair work. Is it malpractice?

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On 09/07/2015 08:21 AM, Mayayana wrote:

Me too! That's why I only use new products when they have the Mike Holmes seal of approval.
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wrote:

Anf Mike uses Schuter system products, including Ditra very extensively in his projects.
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On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:21:18 -0400, "Mayayana"

Not true - the Ditra has a "fabric" back that gets boded to the flor substrate with thinset. Then the waffle of the ditra gets filled with thinset, and the tile is back-buttered with thindet and applied to the filled ditra. Properlu installed, there is pretty close to a 100% bond between the tile and the ditrs - every bit as good a bond as you get with a notched trowel to concrete board.

Why cannot it be strong? You get full support on 50% of the tile area, evenly disributed - guaranteed. (assuming you can follow instructions)

It is NOT floating as a sheet. It is firmly bonded to the subfloor by a full contact thinset layer but with a small amount od "slip" built in to "decouple" the tile from the subfloor so any shift in the subfloor, within limits of course, is not transmitted to the tile, causing either the tile ot grout joint to fracture.

It was definitely not installed properly because a properly installed ditra-heat system has the heating caple or tubing 100% embedded in the thinset, which is thermally conductive and stable. Either the wrong thinst was used or it was not properly installed. Properly installed, a thermal imaging camera will show the location of the heating element when turned on, but within minutes of turning off the power the entire tile surface will show virtually the same temperature and finding the cable would be a guessing game.

It sure is true. I've seen many tile on concrete slabjobs where the tile is cracked because the slab cracked. You see it in shopping malls all the time. It happened in our old office building (second floor of re-enforced concrete structure) and it has also happened in the building we are in now (a single story concrete "pad" construction.

Tile may be waterproof, but grout most definitely is not. Nor is concrete.. Ditra and it's companion product Kerdi are used to make 100% waterproof tiuled shower enclosures, including the shower pan

It sure does.

It's been time tested in europe, where it has been used for forty years.

It was developed by a german master tile setter to solve problems that has arisen in the "old country" - where tiling is done by "masters" not untrained workmen, and particularly after the advent of single fired ceramic tile, which is about all you can buy today (double fired ceramics dissapeared with the first oil crisis)

It also is a lot thinner than concrete board, allowing you to install a 3/8" thick tile without raising the floor level by more than 1/2 inch. Try that with concrete board!!!
I installed ceramic tile and hardwood plank floor on the same surface with a match between the tile and hardwood that passes the quarter test, and it was both the first tile job and the first hardwood job I had attempted. The tile is in the front foyer over 3/4" plywood that had a 1/4" offset in the biddle of it, so by using 2 different thicknesses of Ditra I got a perfectly smooth and level surface, and a guarantee that any moisture tracked in will NOT penetrate the grout and get to the wooden subfloor.

A lot to be said for PEX - and for copper - but that's a different subject. Also a lot to be said for and against the newfangled yellow plastic coated stainless steel flex gas line. I'm "old school" and would not allow "gasfitters" to install it externally to connect my natural gas grille. I ended up doing it myself with iron pipe and calling in the gas company for an inspection when I was finished

I can (possibly) see it's use inside the building envelope, but certainly not exposed.

Copper pipe hasn't particularly stood the test of time either, but that "newfangled" copper pipe (as it was surely referred to back in the thirties and forties) has definitely been a great improvement over galvanized waterpipe, and CPVC drain pipe has definitely proven to be a better solution than either clay tile, cast iron, or Transite.

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| >. The floor as a sheet can't be very | >strong, given the waffle design | | Why cannot it be strong? You get full support on 50% of the tile area, | evenly disributed - guaranteed. (assuming you can follow | instructions)
And what about the other 50%? It sounds like the finished product would have a great deal of flex, since the top of the waffles will have just a thin layer of thinset, and the sheet itself is very flexible.
| It is NOT floating as a sheet. It is firmly bonded to the subfloor by | a full contact thinset layer but with a small amount od "slip" built | in to "decouple" the tile from the subfloor so any shift in the | subfloor, within limits of course, is not transmitted to the tile, | causing either the tile ot grout joint to fracture.
That doesn't make sense. I though the selling point was that it floats. It can't be glued down and also "decoupled". A small amount of slip built in? Built in to what? Either it's stuck down with thinset or it isn't. Concrete board, on the other hand, does float. Your description doesn't make any sense to me. You're describing a dense foam sheet preventing cracks in grout and tile better than a sheet of concrete board. (And as I said, the one job I've seen is already showing problems in less than 6 months.)
| > The selling points mentioned on that page are | >not convincing. "Even if your house shifts, your | >tiles won't". They're implying that a mortar bed | >or thinset on concrete board install will crack, which | >is not true. | | It sure is true. I've seen many tile on concrete slabjobs where the | tile is cracked because the slab cracked. You see it in shopping malls | all the time. It happened in our old office building (second floor of | re-enforced concrete structure) and it has also happened in the | building we are in now (a single story concrete "pad" construction. |
I'm not talking about concrete slab. That's a different situation. I'm talking about wood construction houses, with plywood subfloor, where either a mortar bed or concrete board are used. The OP does have a concrete slab, but he hasn't mentioned anything about cracks. The trouble he's having is with tiles coming up.
| > They also make a claim about being | >waterproof. Waterproof is a main feature of tile. | | Tile may be waterproof, but grout most definitely is not.
Next time you step out of the shower, let yourself drip a puddle and see if it runs down between the tiles, soaking into the grout.
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On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 12:09:42 -0400, "Mayayana"

You have obviously never used the product.

Not only have youi never used it you have not downloaded the installation instructions to see how it is used.

Not onlky jhave you never used it or read the instructions, you have obviously never even laid eyes on the product.

It does? It is fastened down by both nails or screws AND thinset., with all joints taped and filled with thinset., and all joints need to be properly staggered etc.

It is not a foam product - as I said you've never seen the stuff - and if it is failing in 6 months, it was not properly installed. If you used concrete board the way you seem to think it is used it will fail as well - every bit as soon.

Ditra works even better on wood subfloors, with even more advantages over cement board (which you would NOT use on a concrete slab, generally speeking)

It definitely penetrates grout. That's why you need to seal grout. That's why unsealed grout discolors and mildews. ALL concrete products are pourous and none are waterproof. They may be water resistant, butif you totally dehidrate a concrete product it turns back to powder.
Why else do you need a water resistant or waterproof backer for tile shower enclosures? Put tile on drywall, and the drywall turns to mud.

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On 9/7/2015 1:06 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The above is the reason I have epoxy grout in the bathrooms. Now there are urethane grouts that can even be used outdoors or submerged.
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On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 21:05:36 -0400, "Mayayana"

The ditra is the right way to lay tile on wood substrate - actually better than cement board if done according to the instructions. Not sure there is any advantage to using it on an established concrete floor. One thing it WILL do is prevent cranks in the concrete slab from damaging the tile.(this is particularly true on a new slab which may develop cracks after the tile is installed)
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I'm inclined to agree to a great extent with the others. You seem to be saying that the $900 job took less than one day. That's pretty steep. And why are they squirting in adhesive? What do you mean by "adhesive"? Hopefully this wasn't tile mastic on a concrete floor. And why are you walking on it the next day? There seem to be details missing. They should have stuck down the loose tiles with thinset and then grouted the next day. Thinset is generally a 2-day cure. It shouldn't have been walked on the next day except to grout, and then only carefully, with something like a sheet of plywood to spread the load.
My best guess is that your whole floor is probably going and is likely to leave you with two choices: Redo the whole thing, hopefully breaking out the old tiles first, if you can, or get your self some thinset and grout, then just re-stick tiles as they come loose. The latter solution will mean, of course, that you'll also have to accept putting in some new tiles that probably won't match.
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In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:21:21 -0400, dgk

This is a problem, but morally and legally it's not necessarily the deciding fact.
Morally, I've only read a couple replies so far, but I agree with Trader, that it sounds like you're waiving damage they do directly, and if you had ever thought that what he did would cause damage that is $500 more than the original job, you would never have agreed to let him do the job. He named the value of the job as $1400, not you.
Also look up contract of adhesion. That's what you had, a contract written by them, take it or leave it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract
AIUI, contractually, you can waive negligence on the other party's part, but you can't waive gross negligence. If they used the wrong product, or applied it like no one else would do, I'll bet that is gross negligence. Both legally and morally.

Right. After he repairs them for 700, he'll do $2400 damage but be willing to repair it for 1200.

Dang.
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wrote:

Some of my neighbors suggested laminate rather than put down replacement tile. I think that's not a bad idea so I'm looking into that.
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Whatever you do, don't put down "cheap" laminate and expect it to stand up to heavy use or any exposure to moisture. I sure would not put laminate directly onto a concrete slab in a humid location like Palm Beach.
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On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:43:20 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

There does seem to be some debate on that topic. I would use a top quality laminate since it's in a kitchen. What would be installed between the concrete and the laminate?
One thing I read about laminate is that it is very easy to replace and not very expensive to buy, so if there is a water leak and it gets ruined, it's fairly easy to just pull it up and put new stuff down and a contractor isn't needed. Is that true?
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It is true it can be quite easily removed. Removing damaged areas and replacing just the damaged area is possible, but not necrssarily easy - and it depends on the laminate. The expensive crap I installed in my base,ent convinced me to use real hardwood in my living and dining rooms. The laminate was a real bugger to install, and there are several edge chips in a lightly used rec room / office area. Thinner laminate is likely easier to install than the 14mm stuff I used but won't stand up any better.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

I wonder if the tile people leveled the surface? If they didn't then the high spots cause this type of damage, which Ditra is an excellent product to use in this instance.
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Tekkie

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On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:08:38 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

But not hardwood in the kitchen. And now more on the Real Estate agent before I get back to the laminate. She got badmouthed here because I said that she had recommended the tile repair company and I was wrong, mostly because I was trying to be concise and partly because I was just wrong.
The way it went down was that the inspector found tile issues and the seller got an estimate from a tile company for $500 to repair it. They asked (through the agent) that I defer having that done until after the sale because the old lady who owned the house didn't want a big mess. So they offered the $500 off the price. Being a nice guy, I said ok.
When I moved in, there was a ton of stuff going on and I deferred doing the tile until a month later when one of them actually started coming up. I called in the company that had given the estimate, but they said that too much damage had been done and now it would take $900. Since I thought that the real estate agent had recommended that company, I said ok.
The real estate agent is well known, respected, and lives within my 900 home community. She handles most of the house sales and is thorough and apparently quite honest. I emailed her about the kitchen two days ago and she immediately came by to see for herself.
The first thing she asked was why I used that company, and I said that I thought she recommended them. No, that was the seller's choice and she said that they overcharged me. She then sent around her preferred tile guy.
He said that there just weren't enough spare tiles (three) to fix the damage, which I sort of suspected. He didn't say that he thought that the contractor screwed up, but did say that if he had done it the kitchen would probably be fine. But, he also added that the tiles are over 30 years old and I could probably expect more loose tiles over the next 10 years.
I asked about laminate and he said that it's not a bad idea and that many people use it in kitchens. It won't stand up to a real flood, llike a dishwasher disaster, but it's pretty easy to replace if that happens.
His estimated charge to remove the existing tiles (being careful to save as many as possible for future use) is $2 per square foot, $2 psf to install the laminate, and a $100 for the tile disposal fee. There's some extra trimming and saddle stuff, so the whole estimate is around $790.
The laminate is up to me, but he said that we'd need a moisture barrier and that it will either come with the laminate or will need to be bought separately. Either way, even the best laminate will be cheaper than the labor. It seems like a reasonable deal.
So, please don't blame the agent or assume she got a kickback. I like her and that isn't the case. And I'm sorry that I didn't get this all in at the beinning, but that post was long enough and now look at this one.
Anyway, let's speculate about why the seller asked me to defer having them do the tile. I never had tile floors so didn't know about the possible issues. One more thing. Two days ago, early morning, I saw a fox across the street. During the day I went across to my neighbor, who has a small dog that is often unleashed, to warn them about it. During the conversation I mentioned the tiles exploding. The woman told me that Ellie (the seller) had had problems with the tiles in the hallway.
So, I can assume that the real reason that they asked me to defer having the tiles done was because they suspected that there might be complications. Still, the kitchen shouldn't have exploded.
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wrote:

This has got to be the most ridiculous waste of a thread I have ever seen in my life.
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On 9/10/2015 12:58 AM, taxed and spent wrote:

And so you full quoted?
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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taxed and spent posted for all of us...

+1
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In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:29:57 -0400, dgk

Only if you have spare matching tiles that you probably bought at the same time.
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wrote:

They aren't very expensive so I'll do that. Whether I can maintain them so that they can be used down the line is a fair question. The only real storage space is the garage and it isn't air conditioned and this is Florida.
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