Adding a ground wire

[T-Pot]

Is it legal according to the NEC to run a green wire of the same gauge along side of the old romex that had no ground wire, and wire it to the panel and outlet box? (I know local code might differ). I am just asking because I want to move my computer and there is only 2 wire (no ground) romex going to that outlet. I would change the romex, except that it's stapled inside the wall, and I am not tearing open the wall. However, I think I can fish a #12 green wire up there.

I dont have the NEC book. Does anyone know?

Thanks

T-Pot

[Dan]

It used to be legal, isn't anymore. That said, I think I would do that or at least run to a nearby metal water pipe in order to provide protection to electronic equipment. I am a code inspector but I still have a little room in my head for common sense!

Dan

[John Grabowski]

If you can fish a green wire, why can't you fish a new romex? Pull a new romex into the box and tape up the old one and push it to the back.

John Grabowski

[berkshire bill]

See this discussion:

Bill

[bill a]

the old nm is probably stapled, and there's not room for another.

[Joseph Meehan]

The metal water pipe idea does not sound good. What if it is isolated? I doubt if the OP is going to check that. Someone else or the OP may see the ground wire and assume it is good and take a risk without knowing it.

[zxcvbob]

It was legal last time I looked it up; others have said it's not legal anymore.

Fish a green wire back to the main panel, and clamp the wire onto the grounding electrode conductor that comes out of the panel. If an Inspector gives you any crap about it, you can either lie and say the ground wire was added back in 1995, or offer to disconnect it and install an ungrounded receptical, leaving the box ungrounded (which is legal but unsafe.)

Common sense has to prevail at least every once in a while.

Bob

[T-Pot]

That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop off the old one and cant get a new one in place, I am stuck ripping walls apart. I DO NOT want to rip walls apart. If I cant get the green wire up there, I am nowhere ahead or behind. There should be room for one #12 green wire, or even a bare one. I figure that if I cant get the ground wire to the basement, I could also run it outside thru the siding, tack it along the bottom of the siding and have it enter near alongside the phone wire, or outdoor spigot. Both are nearby. I do think I can get it to the basement though.

[T-Pot]

It is all galvanized pipe, right to the well tank. There is a ground rod in the basement floor that goes to the breaker box, and there is a thick wire (#8 or #6) from that same ground rod clamped to the galv. pipe right by the tank. The pipe to the well is black plastic. so I would say that without that wire there would not be a good plumbing ground. However, if I get it from that outlet to the basement, I will go right to the breaker panel, since it's no more than 15 ft away.

I tend to wonder why they would make it a law that this is not legal. Electrically, it does the same thing as if the wire was part of the romex..... ????? Like others said, "common sense".

[Dan]

I think it was because the grounds were often disconnected during plumbing repairs, etc. and not reconnected. Codes are written by committees reviewing suggestions from the field. If you've ever served on a committee, you can understand how sometimes something gets put in just so a member will shut up and let them move on to something more important. As I said in an earlier post, I would install the best ground I could to protect the electronic equipment.

Dan

[zxcvbob]

There's more to it than that. If there an electrical leak to ground through the pipe, it can electrocute an unsuspecting plumber when he breaks the pipe apart someday.

Bob

[HorneTD]

What you are proposing to do is fully compliant with the US NEC. viz. "VII. Methods of Equipment Grounding

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections. Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non?grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). (C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection Association.

-- Tom H

[w_tom]

Both easier and safer to put tiny holes in selected walls; to run a new wire to basement. One need not rip out whole walls to install new wires. If you can't, a professional electrician has a truck full of fancy tools and cute little tricks to route that wire. Don't kludge the safety ground. And do not connect any ground to water pipes - to dump electricity into those pipes.

Safety grounding to water pipes is one of the worse recommendations posted here. It puts plumbers at risk. It puts bathing humans at even greater risk. It is using something for what it was not intended. All electrical connections to pipes to remove electricity from pipe. That should be obvious because a wet human is at greatest risk to electrocution. Never dump electricity into pipes.

Far easier than your posts suggest to run a clean, new 12 AWG wire.

S> That's exactly why, and what I said in my original post. If I chop

[Greg]

W_Tom is the grounding man and this is right, code wise.

[Jeff Cochran]

No longer allowed. Fishing new romex, even if you have to use an old work box, is about the same effort.

Jeff

[zxcvbob]

Several people have said this, but I find it very hard to believe. (and whether it is allowed or not, I would do it anyway) Can you site a reference? Did they change it in 2002, or what?

Thanks, regards, Bob

[Jeff Cochran]

Haven't got a code book here to cite, but it is current, don't know the year for sure though. Locally the inspectors have frowned on this for quite some time, but naturally it's still done without permits. The preferred option is a GFCI outlet but that doesn't help for equipment grounds, and while better than nothing it's still not a ground.

Jeff

[Jeff Cochran]

Can't do a bare wire ground anymore either. :)

Jeff

[Greg]

Do not take advice from people who don't have a code book. You can run a single conductor if it is not subject to damage. Green, green/yellow or bare.

250.130C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure FPN:See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle. Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle under the following conditions. (1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground. (2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle outlets. (3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system. Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.

[Dan]

This is made clear in the 2002 NEC Handbook, which the above quote comes from. The NEC codebook does not contain the clarification interpretation and accompanying illustration making the installation clearly allowed under NEC 2002. I'll check the NEC 2005 today but it's probably the same. I love these discussions, I learn something once in a while.

Dan