Actual price/gallon for 12% Hasa Pool Chlorine (for SMS and the Silicon Valley)

[Zaky Waky]

"DannyD." wrote in news:lofd4a$b5k$ [e-mail]:

Can you post some pics of the labels of the chlorine that you are using?

[trader_4]

I've never seen that table. What makes you think it's right? If you look at the recommendations from the credible organizations, pool standards organizations, health depts, etc, what I've seen is a recommended range of 1 -3, with no adjustment for CYA. I know CYA has an effect, in the sense that while it stabilizes it, it also lessens the sterilizing effect if it gets too high. If you really need to hike the cholrine way up there like that, it's strange that I don't see people doing it, it's not mentioned in health dept guidelines for pools, etc. I can tell you that 1 - 3 ppm has worked fine here for me for years over a wide range of CYA levels. No water clarity, algae issues.

I think you're over doing that by 2X or 3X. That's why you're going through hundreds of pounds of trichlor or endless gallons of liquid chlorine. But it's your pool, if you want to go by some chart instead of what works, that's up to you.

If it's so critical then why do public health depts that state levels for pools just list the levels as 1 -3? IDK of any that say you need 6PPM or that 6PPM is even appropriate for a residential pool period.

I think you're obsessed with one chart of unknown background and ignoring that if it's so important, it would be part of the std guidelines for pool operators. AFAIK, it's not. And using 1/3 the chlorie you use works fine here in my pool. I've had CYA at

70, chlorine at 2 or 3 and the water is clear, no algae, etc.

I hope for the sake of your wallet that you reconsider.

Well, I meant except yours.

It's not that you can't keep chlorine. It's that you have target levels that are 2x - 3x too high.

A lot of this pool stuff is just handed down and a lot of it is wrong. An example is the guideline that you should move the volume of whatever the pool is through the filter system every day. Really? The pool in the shade, the pool with a bunch of kids, the pool in the sun, the pool that's used only one day a week, the pool where it's windy and debris is blowing in, all have the same reqt? I've found I can easily get by with half that filtering and it works.

This isn't rocket science, you can experiment and find out what happens.

[DannyD.]

Zaky Waky wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 21:30:36 +0000:

Here is a picture of the chlorine "I" am using (Costco tablets & HASA liquid):

But, here is a more complete explanation of what *you* might find on the labels:

1. Liquid chlorine at 12.25% trade percentage available chlorine by volume (aka 10.78% available chlorine by weight, aka 11.31% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.7pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/10.78 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
2. Bleach at 6% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 6.17% trade % available chlorine by volume, aka 5.71% available chlorine by weight): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/5.71 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
3. Bleach at 8.25% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 9.08% trade % available chlorine by volume, aka 7.86% available chlorine by weight): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/7.86 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
4. Solids & powders (available chlorine is as listed on the package): $cost/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/?? pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine

Where the demominator for 99% by weight Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, anhydrous, is 64. And, where the denominator for 99% by weight Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione Dihydrate is 55 (which is the same chemical as Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, typically 85% by wt & 14% water, available chlorine 55%). But, the denominator can be as low as 36 for certain formulations (e.g., Costco item #175121, aqua chem Shock Plus 4 in 1 pool shock 24 pack, EPA REG No 67262-27 telephone [phone]).

For trichlor aka trichloroisocyanuric acid or richloro-s-triazinetrione, the available chlorine varies by weight as listed on the package): a. Home Depot & Leslie's Pool 99% trichlor is listed as 90% available chlorine. b. Lowes 95% trichlor is listed as 85% available chlorine. c. Costco 94.05% trichlor is listed as 84.65% available chlorine.

Note: Sometimes, Dichlor Dihydrate available chlorine is shown as 56% (even though 100% pure product would be 55.4% and 99% pure product would be 54.8%), possibly because there may be some anhydrous Dichlor mixed in with the Dichlor Dihydrate (manufacturing processes are not perfect). Also, most confusing, is that sometimes they leave out the "dihydrate" in the ingredients even though it is really there. The easiest way to tell is by looking at the % available chlorine.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

While it stands to logic in that the more stabilizer you have, the more free chlorine you need to maintain its effectiveness, I didn't make that table up.

The original Chlorine/CYA "Best Guess" chart was developed by Ben Powell. Richard Falk had refined and expanded on that original to produce the Chlorine/CYA Chart by Chem Geek as described here:

The point is that most people don't even realize that the free chlorine that they need depends on the existing CYA level that they have!

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

Exactly.

It's a bit too complicated for me to fully understand, but, it's all summarized in this chart:

Which is explained here:

End result?

The sanitizing goal is *not* a particular free chlorine level! It's a particular free chlorine level that offsets whatever your CYA level is.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

I don't disagree.

Take, for example, the pool-store recommendations to reduce phosphates to prevent algal growth.

Sure, algae need phosphates, but, free chlorine, in and of itself, kills algae.

On the other hand, I did try to source industrial lanthanum chloride salt crystals (active ingredient in Orenda PR-10000), but, failed.

So, if anyone here can get a good price on industrial grade lanthanum chloride, you can make a killing on the pool stores!

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

Agreed.

For example, I plan on experimenting with one of the rare-earth salts, to see if that can reduce phosphates (even though chlorine above CYA is all that is needed to prevent algae from growing) ...

Number . Symbol . Element ........... pKAP ... 39 ......... Y ........ Yttrium ............ 24.76 ... 57 ......... La ....... Lanthanum ...... 26.15 ... 58 ......... Ce ...... Cerium ............. ? (probably 26.1) ... 59 ......... Pr ....... Praseodymium . 26.06 ... 60 ......... Nd ...... Neodymium ..... 25.95 ... 61 ......... Pm ...... Promethium ..... ? (probably 25.97) ... 62 ......... Sm ...... Samarium ........ 25.99 ... 63 ......... Eu ....... Europium ........ 25.75 ... 64 ......... Gd ...... Gadolinium ...... 25.39 ... 65 ......... Tb ...... Terbium ........... 25.07 ... 66 ......... Dy ...... Dysprosium ...... 25.15 ... 67 ......... Ho ...... Holmium .......... 25.57 ... 68 ......... Er ....... Erbium ............. 25.78 ... 69 ......... Tm ..... Thulium ........... 26.05 ... 70 ......... Yb ...... Ytterbium ......... 26.17 ... 71 ......... Lu ....... Lutetium .......... 25.39

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

J. O'Brien, J. Morris and J. Butler, â??Equilibria in Aqueous Solutions of Chlorinated Isocyanurateâ?, Chapter 14 in A. Rubin, ed., Chemistry of Water Supply, Treatment and Distribution, 1973 Symposium, (published 1974), Ann Arbor Science, Ann Arbor, MI, pp. 333-358.

The following is an approximate formula you can use so long as your CYA ppm is at least 5 times your FC (the formula really falls apart terribly below a ratio of CYA/FC of 3).

(HOCl as ppm Cl2) = (FC as ppm Cl2) / ( 2.7*(ppm CYA) - 4.9*(FC as ppm Cl2) + 5 )

and if you are interested in the FC for a given HOCl (to construct the equivalent of Ben's table, for example), you can use the following which just solves for ppm FC from the above.

(FC as ppm Cl2) = ( 2.7*(ppm CYA) + 5 ) / ( 4.9 + 1/(ppm HOCl) )

The constants in the above formulas are for a pH of 7.5 (which is the only parameter that significantly affects these constants). With the spreadsheet I can easily calculate the constants for other pH, but remember that the above formulas are approximate. For example, with FC of 3 and CYA of 15 the formula gives HOCl as 0.098 when the correct answer is 0.095. That's not terrible (about an 3% error). However, with FC of 5 and CYA of 15 the formula gives HOCl as 0.239 while the correct answer is 0.199 (about an 20% error) which isn't as good.

A rough rule of thumb that applies at a pH of 7.5 is that the effective chlorine level is reduced by a factor about equal to the ppm of the CYA. So, a CYA of 30 ppm reduces the disinfecting chlorine (HOCl) level to about 1/30th of what it would be with no CYA.

[Zaky Waky]

"DannyD." wrote in news:lofn79$b5k$ [e-mail]:

Thanks.

[trader_4]

I didn't say you made it up. I said:

A - IDK where you found it, who made it up, what it's based on, if it's right. Based on your link, it came from a guy called ChemGeek, who says this:

"ACKNOWLEDGMENT: The original chlorine/CYA chart was developed by Ben Powell and is shown here based mostly on experience plus some conversations with chemists. "

That doesn't sound like much of a basis for anything.

B - I find it hard to believe it's right, because if you look at the water quality recommendation from pool standards organizations, public health depts, etc, I've never seen the chart or anything that says your high levels of chlorine are needed. They typically say to maintain chlorine at 1 -3 and CYA at 30 - 60 is recommended. If you really need to take chlorine to 8PPM when CYA is at 70, to sanitize a pool, you sure would think they would say so, because it affects millions of pools. It would be a health problem if many of those pools need 8 ppm to sanitize but were only at 2 or 3.

I think the point is that you're one of the few with these very high target levels for chlorine and that's why you go through hundreds of pounds of trichlor, gallons of chlorine, need 4 floaters in a pool. The four floaters boggles the mind, because it's like a tiger chasing it's tail. You're putting large amounts of chlorine in because you think you need it with higher CYA. But with 4 floaters, you're also adding CYA at about 4X the rate the rest of us are, which in turn leads you to add even more chlorine.

I'd suggest that you're reading something from one source that even they say is based on personal observation. IDK what they were observing, but following that as if it were gospel doesn't sound too wise to me, especially when the stds orgainzations, health depts, who's job #1 is to make sure pools are adequately sanitized say nothing of the sort.

Anyone else with a pool here targeting 5 to 9 PPM chlorine levels, regardless of how much CYA they have? I keep mine at 1 -3 and have no problems, no algae, clear water. I only have to shock it rarely too.

[DannyD.]

Zaky Waky wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 07:36:37 +0000:

I made a slight typo on the HASA liquid chlorine; it's 12.5%, not 12.25%, but the equation is otherwise correct (AFAIK).

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 05:31:48 -0700:

Hi trader_4,

I understand what you're saying, so, we need to look at this closely, scientifically, and logically.

Both you and I can understand the *logic* of the CYA-to-chlorine argument. It's why pool stores test CYA in the first place.

The higher the CYA, the less effective any one level of chlorine is. We all know that, so, at least the "inherent" logic is underlying the charts.

But is it science?

This technical bulletin lists a few scientific references:

Namely, the following which, the bulletin says, conclude: "cya inhibits chlorine's ability to kill bacteria". a) American Journal of Public Health, October 1965, Anderson b) Applied microbiology, May 1967, Fitzgerald

Yet, we are saying most "official" recommendations don't mention the CYA level, right?

Here's an 'advisory', that says, essentially, the same thing:

So, maybe together, we can flesh this out, to understand why most official chlorine recommendations don't seem to take into account the CYA levels.

One potential "error" in our assumptions is that an *indoor* pool probably doesn't have *any* CYA; so, any "official" recommendation for chlorine levels in an indoor pool wouldn't be pertinent.

Another potential complicating factor is that, for outdoor pools, the CYA levels might be "assumed". I don't know, as we'd have to look at each official recommendation to be sure.

This post is getting long, so let me google for "official"

*outdoor* pool chlorine recommendations to see what I can dig up to support or disprove the hypothesis.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 05:31:48 -0700:

Hi trader 4,

I'm all for the truth, and, I do understand your argument that we should look to the health departments to see what their recommendations are for *outdoor* uncovered pools.

But, I do refute the assumption that there is only one source for the CYA levels hindering the effectiveness of the free chlorine.

I do agree that specific *chart* I referenced has few authors, but the

*science* behind the chart's assumptions is (apparently) sound.

The chart is an just a pragmatic attempt to make the known science

*applicable* to a pool owner. So, let's not concentrate too much on the chart itself, and look to see if we can find official recommendations for *outdoor* uncovered public pools.

Googling, for outdoor institutional pool chlorine recommendations, I instantly find this "article", which discusses experiments made at the outdoor Hall of Fame pool in Florida then at the University of Hawaii outdoor competitive pool:

Again, that article (it's not a scientific paper but it lists about two dozen scientific references) supports the theory that the CYA reduces the sanitizing effectiveness of the chlorine by more than 1/3 at the normally recommended levels of free chlorine (although it does discuss the fact that bacteria do still die ... they mostly just die ten times slower).

I'll keep looking for something "official" for *outdoor* pools...

[trader_4]

I never said there is only one source for the CYA levels hindering the effectiveness of chlorine. In fact, I acknowledged that it happens.

The sciene we agree on is that it has an effect. That says zippo about the soundness of that chart, which the author even states is apparently made on his personal observations, whatever that means.

My observation is that with CYA in a range of 30 to 70 or so, chlorine levels of 1 - 3 have not caused any problems in my pool. And I don't know of anyone except you that has these high chlorine targets, 4 floaters, etc.

Look at figure 1 of the above document and you can see that what you're doing is a waste of time. Look at 40 PPM CYA. With a chlorine level of

1.5 you get an effectiveness of 660. Take the chlorine all the way up to 4, and you get an effectiveness of 730. It effects it, but adding 4X the chlorine doesn't improve the sanitizing ability that much.

Then look at 60 PPM CYA. You can take the chlorine to 4, or even 8 as you are doing, and what happens to the effectiveness? It's almost the same as it is with the chlorine at 1.5, ie the additional chlorine isn't doing anything to help you.

And you don't need super effective chlorine, you just need enough to do the job. If X works, 2X or 6X isn't really going to work better, for routine sanitation. And apparently with 60 CYA, 2 PPM chlorine is fine, except apparently for the guy who came up with that chart.

Note that the above article you found, the author doesn't say that you need 6, 8 whatever chlorine, like the chart you found. And as I've pointed out, those levels are way beyond what every public health authority I've seen recommends. If anything, it's more likely you're going to find someone saying those levels are too high for the pool to be used.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 07:23:08 -0700:

:)

I'm all for the truth as numbers don't lie when they're done right.

What I'd like to find is a public health document for an outdoor uncovered pool that shows they have "considered" the implications of CYA in how it affects sanitizing at specific free chlorine levels.

For example, this document is extensive, but doesn't cover the topic all that well (they just assume a CYA level):

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 07:23:08 -0700:

Given your range of 30 to 70ppm CYA, notice this reference at 50ppm CYA which is quoted in this previously noted PDF:

"Crypto CT inactivation values are based on killing 99.9% of Crypto. This level of Crypto inactivation *cannot be reached* in the presence of 50 ppm chlorine stabilizer, even after 24 hours at 40 ppm free chlorine, pH 6.5, and a temperature of 77°F (25°C). ?? Extrapolation of these data suggest it would take approximately 30 hours to kill 99.9% of Crypto in the presence of 50 ppm or less cyanuric acid, 40 ppm free chlorine, pH 6.5, and a temperature of 77°F (25°C) or higher.

Where the ?? indicates this reference source: Shields JM, Arrowood MJ, Hill VR, Beach MJ. The effect of cyanuric acid on the chlorine inactivation of Cryptosporidium parvum. J Water Health2008; 7(1): 109?114.

[DannyD.]

UPDATE: Here is the final summary of the cost equations, to date ...

Fact Sheet on Cyanuric Acid and Stabilized Chlorine Products

1. Liquid chlorine at 12.5% trade percentage available chlorine by volume (aka 10.78% available chlorine by weight) (aka 11.31% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.7pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/10.78 pounds available chlorine

1. Bleach at 8.25% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 9.08% trade % available chlorine by volume) (aka 7.86% available chlorine by weight): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/7.86 pounds available chlorine

2. Bleach at 6% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 6.17% trade % available chlorine by volume) (aka 5.71% available chlorine by weight): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/5.71 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine

1. Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, anhydrous at 99% by weight (available chlorine is 64% by weight, or as listed on the package): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/64 pounds available chlorine

2. Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione dihydrate at 99% by weight (available chlorine is 55% by weight, or as listed on the package): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/55 pounds available chlorine

Note: This is sometimes listed as Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, typically 85% by weight with 14% locked up as water, but the available chlorine is still 55%)

1. Trichlor from Home Depot & Leslie's Pool at 99% by weight (aka trichloroisocyanuric acid, listed at 90% available chlorine) price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/90 pounds available chlorine

1. Trichlor from Costco & Lowes at 95% by weight (aka trichloroisocyanuric acid, listed at 85% available chlorine) price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/85 pounds available chlorine

2. Shock Plus 4 in 1 pool shock, Aqua Chem Costco item #175121, 24 pack (where available chlorine is 35.6%, confirmed by phone [phone] and 800-859-7946 technical support for 'product code' 22112AQU). price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/35.6 pounds available chlorine ================================================ ================================================ Note1: The Costco #175121 product is labeled EPA REG No 67262-27, Here is the EPA lookup for that product: According to that page, the product is 58.2% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione. So compared to Dichlor dihydrate, which is 85% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (i.e. not including the dihydrate), the Costco product is 68.5% of what you would get with a normal Dichlor dihydrate product.

This 68.5% is purity relative to 99% pure Dichlor Dihydrate product, NOT an absolute % Available Chlorine. The % Available Chlorine of 100% pure Dichlor Dihydrate is 55.4% while the typical 99% pure product is

54.9% (i.e. 55%). 0.99*55.4%*0.685 = 37.6% so it's close to the 35.6% the company quotes when you call them in Georgia.

------------------------------------------------ Note2: Sometimes, Dichlor Dihydrate available chlorine is shown as 56% (even though 100% pure product would be 55.4% and 99% pure product would be 54.8%), possibly because there may be some anhydrous Dichlor mixed in with the Dichlor Dihydrate (manufacturing processes are not perfect). Also, most confusing, is that sometimes they leave out the "dihydrate" in the ingredients even though it is really there. The easiest way to tell is by looking at the % available chlorine.

------------------------------------------------ Note3: Although the ingredients may say "Sodium Hypochlorite" at

12.5% on a bottle of chlorinating liquid, which would normally imply that to be the weight percent of sodium hypochlorite; however, in practice, it's the Trade % that is listed ast 12.5% on the bottle of liquid chlorine. It's very confusing and really hard to know the truth. Also, higher chlorine levels degrade faster, which is why most don't worry much about it. Look at this link for a product specification for "12.5 Trade Percent Available Chlorine" chlorinating liquid with 10.55 - 10.8 Weight % Available Chlorine and 11.0 - 11.3 Weight % Sodium Hypochlorite.

------------------------------------------------

[Guest]

HOW CAN THE " THE STABILIZER WORKS OUT JUST RIGHT"? BE TRUE IN ANY SENSE? STABILIZER DOESNT "JUST WORK OUT" NO MATTER WHERE YOUR LOCATED!! SO THIS IS FALSE ON MORE THAN ONE POINT. "JUST WORKS OUT" HOW FUNNY !

[Guest]

CYA SHOULD BE AT 40PPM FOR OPTIMAL HASA CHLORINE TO WORK

[Guest]

AWESOME !!