Actual price/gallon for 12% Hasa Pool Chlorine (for SMS and the Silicon Valley)

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SMS turned me on to the "Pool Store" in Saratoga, which runs a "special" all the time on HASA 12% liquid chlorine (I buy 16 gallons at a time), which has the following math, if interested.
HISTORY: It used to be "buy one case, get one case free", which was pretty simple because one case of 4 gallons was $18.40 + 8.75% sales tax added $1.61 which made each gallon $4.60 + ~$ 0.41 tax ~= $5.00/gallon out the door if you only bought one case, but, with the free case, that added just the ~$1.61 tax (California makes you pay tax on free stuff), so for 8 gallons, it used to be simple at $18.40 + 2($1.61) = $21.62/8 = $2.70/gallon.
CURRENT: Now, it's no longer that simple.
It's still $18.40/case + 8.75% tax for one case, but if you buy two cases, the price has changed to "buy 6 gallons get 2 free", whose math turns out to then be 6 gallons x $4.60 each gallon + $0.41 tax each gallon = $30.00, plus tax on the two free gallons at $0.41 each, which turns out to = $30.82 for 8 gallons, or ~$3.85/gallon of 12% HASA liquid chlorine.
But, you always get a card for "buy 11, get 1 free" at the store, so, you end up subtracting $4.60 from that on every second visit, so, on that second visit, you end up subtracting $4.60 but adding $0.41 tax, which nets in a second trip cost of $30.82 - $4.60 + $0.41 = $26.63, which then comes to $3.32/gallon on that second trip.
If you average the first-trip cost of $3.85/gallon & the second-trip cost of $3.32/gallon, which is about $3.59/gallon, overall.
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On Monday, June 23, 2014 5:26:06 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

Let's continue the math. A gallon by your calculations costs $3.32. It has 12% chlorine. A gallon weighes about 8.3 lbs, so you're getting 1 lb of chlorine for $3.32.
Tablet form is available many places for about $80 for a 40lb pail. IT's 90% chlorine, so you're getting 36 pounds of chlorine. That's $2.22 a pound. Add tax of 7%, and it's $2.38. The liguid is 40% more expensive. Not to mention harder to haul around, you have to add it every couple days by hand, versus one bucket, where you grab 7 tablets, put them in a floating dispenser and you're good for a week.
If you have issues with too much stablizer building up, then I can see using chlorine. But here in northeast, the stabilizer works out just right, and it's free. Stabilizer isn't cheap, so factor that you need to buy that too when using liquid and using liquid chlorine would be even more expensive. And it's also a PIA to get stabilizer to disolve too. With the tabs, it's cheap, no fuss, no muss.
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I'm not sure what you have there. Can you post some pics?
Thanks
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On Monday, June 23, 2014 5:26:06 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

No kidding. You got it completely wrong.
Here's a better calculation from someone who appears to know what they are doing.
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:55:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

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trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:55:11 -0700:

My fault. I should have provided more details about the percentage.
This lousy issue of % Available Chlorine vs. Trade % (volume % Available Chlorine) vs. % of product (weight % of product) is extremely confusing to me; but, it makes a huge difference in the calculations of cost for chlorine! Specifically, bleach percentages are listed by weight, such that 6% bleach is 6% by weight, or 5.7% available chlorine. However, the HASA liquid chlorine is listed by trade percentage, so 12.5% trade chlorine is 11.6% available chlorine.
In both cases the actual strength varies with age where the turnover in the HASA chlorine is extremely fast (they go through a few pallets a day!) while the turnover in bleach is dismal by way of comparison (however, the *lower* the percentage of chlorine, the longer it lasts (which seems counter intuitive, to me, but I have confirmed this will phone calls to Clorox folks).
Given the percentage confusion above, we can then add solid equations, to finally get these generic equations for calculating the true cost of sanitizing chlorine for all three types:
a) liquid chlorine: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.8% by wt available chlorine
b) liquid bleach: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.0pounds x 1/5.7% by wt available chlorine
c) solids: $cost/pound x 1/??% by wt available chlorine, as listed on the container
(assume 36% if it's not listed, which is what I've found out by calling *every* manufacturer who didn't list the percentage! They're trying to hide a lousy number every time!).
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On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:27:13 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

Wow, like 12.5 vs 11.6 really changes it materially. Actually, I thought the liq pool chlorine was typically 12%.

And after all that, the liquid chlorine is still 40% more expensive than trichlor. And with trichlor, you bring home one 40 lb pail that lasts a season. You grab 6 tablets, put them in the floating duck once a week. Less expensive and no shlepping 36 gallons of liq chlorine in jugs around in the car and then putting it in every couple of days.
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Zaky Waky wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 14:47:03 +0000:

I'm not sure what you want a picture of?
Here is the pool store that sells the HASA liquid chlorine: http://www.yourpoolguys.com/
Here is a screenshot of the coupon they perennially offer: http://www.valpak.com/coupons/printable/The-Pool-Guys/24074
Here is a photo of the 8 gallons of HASA chlorine I buy:

The price is the best I can calculate for chlorine, given prices at Leslie's Pool, Costo, Lowes, Home Depot, Safeway, and Orchard Supply (OSH).
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trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:55:11 -0700:

You bring up a very good point about the stabilizer!
Every year I empty my pool (a bit under 40K gallons) and fill it back up again, so, I have to add the cyanuric acid (CYA) stabilizer.
I used to add about 15 pounds of the *granules* to bring up the CYA from 0ppm to about 50ppm (we have a *lot* of sun out here), but this year I added 15 pounds of the CYA *powder* which is *very easy* to do once you know how!
I'll never use the granules ever again.
The powder is available from *any* pool store that buys liquid chlorine from HASA (which is common out here in California), and they sell it in any desired amount at the *same price* as they sell the CYA granules.
So, in a single sitting (about an hour), I can bring up a pool from zero PPM to 50ppm CYA, so that the liquid chlorine has a chance of lasting in this perennial sunlight.
As you noted, all the solid pucks and most of the "shock" powders also contain CYA, and I also use them (when appropriate, e.g., when I go on vacation), so, there is nothing wrong with the "slow" method either.
One caution though is that it takes *technique* to distribute the CYA powder, because it won't work in a sock like the granules do, but, once you know the technique, it's even easier than using CYA granules, and certainly far cheaper than the so-called "liquid CYA" you can buy in the pool stores.
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VinnyB wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 09:57:58 -0500:

I think these are the equations, are they not?
a) liquid chlorine: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.8% by wt available chlorine
b) liquid bleach: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.0pounds x 1/5.7% by wt available chlorine
c) solids: $cost/pound x 1/??% by wt available chlorine, as listed on the container
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DannyD. wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 20:32:18 +0000:

I have used all three types of chlorine:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2908/14265343766_fc5922732f_b.jpg
Assuming the HASA liquid chlorine averaged $3.59/gallon after all the value-pack coupon and buy-11-get-one-free complicating shenanigans:
The equation for liquid chlorine is: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.8% by wt available chlorine
So that's: $3.59/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 100/10.8 = $3.43/pound of available Cl
By way of liquid chlorine local (Silicon Valley) comparison: Home Depot = $6.86/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $3.27/pound of available Cl Lowes = $6.90/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $3.29/pound of available Cl Leslie = $10.49/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $5.01/pound of available Cl
Comparing the Dichlor, we get: Leslies = $122/40 pounds * 100/55 pounds = $5.55/pound of available Cl Lowes = $70/22.5 pounds * 100/56 pounds = $5.56/pound of available Cl Home Depot = $80/22.5 pounds * 100/56 pounds = $6.35/pound of available Cl Costco = $55/24 pounds * 100/36 = $6.37/pound of available Cl
For Trichlor, we get: Home Depot = $75/37.5 pounds * 100/90 pounds = $2.22/pound of available Cl Costco = 84.79/40 pounds * 100/84.65 pounds = $2.50/pound of available Cl Lowes $75/35 pounds * 100/85 pounds = $2.52/pound of available Cl[/b] Leslies = $80/35 pounds * 100/90 pounds = $2.54/pound of available Cl
For Calcium hypochlorite, we get: Leslies = $107.19/25 pounds * 100/73 pounds = $5.87/pound of available Cl
So, the best price for available chlorine (excluding the fact it raises the CYA), seems to be the Home Depot Trichlor, or (if you don't want to raise CYA), the Home Depot liquid chlorine (assuming it's fresh).
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On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

$2.22 vs $3.27 So liquid chlorine is 47% more expensive than trichlor. The calculations I presented liquid chlorine was 40% more. 40%, 47% it makes not a nipple's worth of difference.
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trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 16:02:51 -0700:

I'm sorry if the implication was that it changed the results by a lot. It doesn't, I agree. I was just being precise, but, as we all know, the *age* of the liquid chlorine and exposure to the elements can make a big difference in the levels.
So, your numbers are as good as mine, I agree. I never meant to intimate otherwise.

This is a good point. The liquid chlorine, I admit, is a pain. Plus, it raises the pH (which is a different pain). And it's a long drive for me to get the HASA stuff, which I use a lot of: But, I also use the trichlor! :)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2908/14265343766_fc5922732f_b.jpg

I use a few hundred pounds in some seasons, so the added CYA is a problem. How much of a problem the CYA becomes is based more on the leaks I repair (right now I have most repaired).

as inexpensive as you intimate, but I also have a huge pool.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3678/14286469592_4e18e5582b_b.jpg

I use both the trichlor pucks and the liquid chlorine:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2908/14265343766_fc5922732f_b.jpg
Both have their problems. a) The trichlor adds CYA, which, after a while, is a bad thing (as you always need to keep FC above the CYA levels). b) The liquid chlorine is difficult to handle as I buy 16 gallons at a time, and it's a royal pain to use.
The pool is pretty deep, as pools go:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3750/14288493624_8dbd17ae83_b.jpg
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On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:52:50 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

Four floaters? Hundreds of pounds a season? Your season is longer, but something isn't right here. 48,000 gallon pool here, just one floater. One 40 pound pail of Trichlor lasts from mid-May to early Sept, about 4 months.

How many gallons?
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trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 16:08:50 -0700:

I think you are correct that, at the current prices, the HASA liquid chlorine is substandard to the Costco or Home Depot trichlor pucks, when it comes to sheer price per chlorinating power.
Here are, I think, the overall equations for each type: liquid chlorine: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.78% available chlorine (by weight) = price per pound of available chlorine
liquid bleach: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.0pounds x 1/5.7% available chlorine (by weight) = price per pound of available chlorine
chlorine solids: $cost/pound x 1/xx% available chlorine (by weight) = price per pound of available chlorine
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trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 02:51:25 -0700:

The sun is brutal here, so I both add isocyanuric acid (CYA) powder (not granules) and use the floaters until the CYA level gets around 60 to about 80 ppm, then I have to pull the floaters, and use liquid chlorine from that point onward, until I empty the pool again.
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On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:35:56 AM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

With 4 floaters, isn't the chlorine through the roof? There is plenty of full sun here in summer in the NYC area and with a 48,000 gallon pool, 1 floater loaded with about 7 tabs keeps the chlorine at about 2 PPM. If you have 4 floaters going, then you're going to be adding CYA at 4X the typical rate, so I'm not surprised you have an excess CYA problem. The question is why you need so much chlorine? I've never seen a pool with more than one floating dispenser, let alone four.
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DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 13:35:56 +0000:

BTW, adding the special CYA *powder* is necessary under circumstances when you can't run the equipment after having refilled the pool (due to water levels taking weeks to rise given slow well refilling) and given a very high sun load (California).
To be sure, adding the *powder* is easy, but all normal methods will fail miserably, because once the powder gets wet, it *instantly* turns into a solid brick! (I've never seen anything "set" so fast!)
Bearing in mind that CYA powder will do the same thing in your lungs, if it ever gets that far, after a few failed experiments, I was able devise a CYA powder distribution method that *easily* brings a pool from 0 ppm CYA to about 40 ppm in a single sitting, with *no visible CYA residue*.
Here's a picture of the iso cyanuric acid powder:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3754/14288464215_e1f9945a46_b.jpg
Here's a picture of my starting point:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2921/14290908472_74a42f6d2f_b.jpg
The first thing I did was sift the powder into a 5-gallon bucket of water:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2935/14288463955_ac49c388f9_b.jpg
If I didn't swish the water, and just let the CYA settle, this is what happened at the bottom of the bucket:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3774/14268701276_421b2bb601_b.jpg
So, I learned to swish the water while shaking the powder over the skimmer net into the bucket of water.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3717/14105281287_3bd6f33721_b.jpg
Then I poured the water into another bucket:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2905/14292240094_2369793809_b.jpg
And, as I poured, I filtering out any sediment with a skimmer net:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3714/14286472212_ef6b420a5c_b.jpg
Over time, I learned, the more I swished, the less sediment I filtered:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5191/14288462515_d00be45d05_b.jpg
Until I got to a point where four or five 8-ounce cups of the powder would easily go into a five-gallon bucket of water:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3665/14289847442_356e28031d_b.jpg
Then, I simply poured the suspended-particle CYA "milk" slurry into the pool:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2901/14286472672_53c71a9dd0_b.jpg
The lovely clouds of suspended CYA particles in the water were a beautiful sight to see (these clouds are *in* the water!):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3799/14106114938_496f8fb243_b.jpg
By way of failed experimentation, simply shaking the CYA powder over the pool with a skimmer net fails if there is any wind, as the powder blows away; and it fails the moment you accidently get the powder wet (which turns it into an instant brick)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3793/14312945613_a53920d46e_b.jpg
And, even if you're successful at shaking the powder over the pool on a calm day, the powder floats on the top of the water like an island, due to its propensity to form clumps:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5113/14106128430_5d9d55434f_b.jpg
But, I'm happy to report that the double-bucket swishing filter method works just fine, and it's very easy and satisfying to do!
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5517/14106225077_1ff36835bd_b.jpg
Here is another picture of the lovely cloud of CYA dispersing throughout the pool, with each CYA particle surrounded by water:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3723/14269641626_f4931740a1_b.jpg
IMHO, this is the easiest, cheapest way, to add CYA to your pool if you recently refilled it, and if you have a huge sun load, like I do (which will murder you in chlorine costs otherwise):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5571/14286473342_6af9853124_b.jpg
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Oren wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 07:24:12 -0700:

Hi Oren,
Huckleberries are, um, I mean bleach is a strange beast indeed, which, I admit, is confusing because, while chlorinating liquid is usually sold by *trade percentage*, in contrast, a regular bleach is usually sold by *weight percentage* of product (i.e., of sodium hypochlorite).
So 8.25% bleach (sold by weight % of sodium hypochlorite) is only 7.86% available chlorine (by weight), and, assuming a 1.10 g/ml density, this is 9.08% trade percentage (i.e., % Available Chlorine by volume).
Similarly, a typical 6% bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite by weight, which is only 5.7% available chlorine.
Hence, the two equations: 1. Cost per pound of available chlorine for liquid chlorine: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 100pounds of liquid/10.78pounds available chlorine 2. Cost per pound of available chlorine for liquid bleach: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.0pounds x 100pounds of liquid/5.7 pounds available chlorine
Sometimes things are just complicated.
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trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 08:06:58 -0700:

I understood everything you imply, as I am familiar with the increasing ratio of CYA to target free chlorine level as per this common table:
(Stabilizer) (Minimum FC) (Target FC) (Shock FC) 20 2 3 10 30 2 4 12 40 3 5 16 50 4 6 20 60 5 7 24 70 5 8 28 80 6 9 31 90 7 10 35 100 7 12 39 etc.

I actually only have about 50 ppm CYA, even with adding the powder, which means I need to target Free Chlorine at 6 ppm.

I realize it's not often stated at the pool store, but, the chlorine number is wholly useless without the associated CYA value.
For example, with your 2ppm of free chlorine, if you had a 40 ppm CYA, you'd already be below the minimum, and far below the target chlorine levels for your pool (based on my read of the chart above).
I can only hope, for your sake, that your CYA is at or below 30ppm, which, for a sunny area out here, would not be enough stabilizer.

You haven't seen "my" pool! :)
Seriously though, I'm welcome and open to ideas, as I can't seem to keep chlorine in this pool, even though the biological load is nearly zero (nobody even swims in it lately).
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On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:57:46 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

I've never seen that table. What makes you think it's right? If you look at the recommendations from the credible organizations, pool standards organizations, health depts, etc, what I've seen is a recommended range of 1 -3, with no adjustment for CYA. I know CYA has an effect, in the sense that while it stabilizes it, it also lessens the sterilizing effect if it gets too high. If you really need to hike the cholrine way up there like that, it's strange that I don't see people doing it, it's not mentioned in health dept guidelines for pools, etc. I can tell you that 1 - 3 ppm has worked fine here for me for years over a wide range of CYA levels. No water clarity, algae issues.

I think you're over doing that by 2X or 3X. That's why you're going through hundreds of pounds of trichlor or endless gallons of liquid chlorine. But it's your pool, if you want to go by some chart instead of what works, that's up to you.

If it's so critical then why do public health depts that state levels for pools just list the levels as 1 -3? IDK of any that say you need 6PPM or that 6PPM is even appropriate for a residential pool period.

I think you're obsessed with one chart of unknown background and ignoring that if it's so important, it would be part of the std guidelines for pool operators. AFAIK, it's not. And using 1/3 the chlorie you use works fine here in my pool. I've had CYA at 70, chlorine at 2 or 3 and the water is clear, no algae, etc.

I hope for the sake of your wallet that you reconsider.

Well, I meant except yours.

It's not that you can't keep chlorine. It's that you have target levels that are 2x - 3x too high.
A lot of this pool stuff is just handed down and a lot of it is wrong. An example is the guideline that you should move the volume of whatever the pool is through the filter system every day. Really? The pool in the shade, the pool with a bunch of kids, the pool in the sun, the pool that's used only one day a week, the pool where it's windy and debris is blowing in, all have the same reqt? I've found I can easily get by with half that filtering and it works.
This isn't rocket science, you can experiment and find out what happens.
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