AC ground, copper-pex

That was the issue, not that homeowners are doing it without following code. I was questioning what the debate was about and cited what I think in the code says you have to bond it, so I was curious what interpretation some inspectors have that allow it. I can see if you run PEX from the basement to a bathroom, it's only convenient to get to within a few feet of the shower with PEX, so they let you leave that small remaining portion of the old meatl pipe unbonded. In that case, there is only a few feet of it, it obviously goes to the shower and it's unlikely anything else is relying on the ground. I also saw from googling somewhere that an inspector would allow 18" of metal piping to remain unbonded. Again, I get that, because at 18" it should be obvious where it goes, that nothing else is connected to it, that it's extremely unlikely to wind up energized, etc.

But as I said, I don't see why an inspector would allow you to take out a 10ft section of metal pipe in an old house where it's often not clear where all the piping goes to, you can't visibly inspect it, you don't know what might have been wired to it in the past, etc. So, I think we're in agreement, it's just that if I understand it correctly, gfre is saying some inspectors are OK with not bonding across the 10 ft plastic section and I'm curious what their basis is.

That's pretty funny or pretty bad, depending on how you look at it.

Was it supposed to have a permit and be inspected? That would catch it, presumably, at least here in NJ.

Reply to
trader4
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ground if the pipes are replaced with PEX? Have two connections that I am aware of. One to the cold water pipe at water heater. The other one is ground rod by the meter.

Does that mean that PEX is not feasible?

Why would anyone replace copper pipe with PEX? Copper is the best pipe available, and should last you a lifetime. You want to replace it with that cheap plastic crap that will probably fail in 10 years. You must be an IDIOT!!!!

Reply to
Hubert

I think you have some serious fact checking to do. As good as copper is, it is subject to corrosion and pin holing in certain soils. Ask anyone who has had to have a plumber break through the slab to repair a leak in the copper line. There were serious failures with polybutylene piping, though it was the crimp rings used that caused most of the problems. Pex seems to have become the piping of choice at this time.

Reply to
DanG

agreed PEX is very good, easy to run, tolerant of being frozen, it just expands a bit... ' best of all no one will steal pex, since it has no scrap values....

stealing copper plumbing is a big industry nationwide.......

a old friend is looking to buy a fixer upper, i have been going along with him.

most homes have all the copper stolen, one home had all the metal stollen including furnace and duct work, one home had most of the alunimum siding stolen.

Reply to
bob haller

if you replace the outdoor main line with pex its probably a good idea to leave the old copper line abandoned as a ground connection.

if anyone replaces a section of copper with pex then its probably best to install a copper ground jumper around the pex area

Reply to
bob haller

And, the jumper better be something sturdier/heavier/thicker/larger diameter than an old conductor from a telephone cable.

Reply to
hrhofmann

Not because it is good, rather because it is cheap.

Reply to
krw

I sure don't like PEX at all. I'd *MUCH* rather have copper but this house has PVC. :-( My other house is PEX which was a PITA. Hated it.

Reply to
krw

Hmm, Cu pipe won't last when water it carries is quite acidic. Poly. pipes are OK in colder climate. Still Cu pipe brings water upto your house. Gnd braid has to be connected there to the pipe at the entry point to your house.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

Slow. Impossible to add to. Difficult to work with. You name it. Crap! The manifolds were goodness but I just added a bunch of ball valves in the basement of my previous house. Copper is trivial to work with (getting ready to plumb my current house with compressed air

- all copper)

Reply to
krw

Don't do that.

Georgia isn't exactly cold.

Wrong.

What *are* you talking about?

Reply to
krw

Don't believe it. My experience tells me PEX is junk. I'd never have it again. No pressure and a PITA to work with in existing installations. It may be cheap and easy to install but it's a PITA to work on. Monkeys can do copper supply lines. Waste is more difficult but not as difficult as paying for it. ;-)

>
Reply to
krw

theres PRESSURE, and theres FLOW, as in gallons per minute.they arent the same.

which one is the problem?

Reply to
bob haller

Pressure = Voltage Flow = Current Galloons /m = Watt/H or Kwh Depend on Back pressure = Load? Inductive or Resistive

****************************** 4 wires "with" neutral = 220/120/1/60 4 wires "without" neutral = 220/3/60 or 440/3/60
Reply to
Tony944

Are you saying that they're not related?

Reply to
krw

a good friend has a vehicle on natural gas.

pressure over 3,500 pounds. however the line is small limiting the flow.

while they are related, they arent the same

Reply to
bob haller

We always used #4 from the single ground rod to the panel but are you positing that #6 should be used to connect any ground rods together? I seem to remember you stating that you were an electrical inspector at one time and I'd like your opinion on the new flexible gas lines being used in a lot of new construction and remodels. As I recall, it's a thin corrugated stainless steel or copper alloy which makes it bendable by hand and I'm guessing that an electrical arc such as one from a lightning strike could punch a hole through it regardless of the plastic jacket and I believe it could cause a fire. What can you tell me of code requirements, if any, about grounding gas lines? ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

You just responded to a troll. They're quite common and show up from time to time and it's often the same freak who simply nym shifts. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Hi, I use a 2 inch wide silver coated copper braid as gnd buss.(I swiped a spool when I retire, LOL!) When rod is driven put some charcoal powder in the hole for improved conductivity. If you want to test how good the ground is, try to light up a bulb between gnd and hot wire. If it burns bright.... good gnd.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

You don't need larger than #6 if it is "free from exposure to physical damage". A ground rod can't sink all that much current.

I recently heard an electrical inspector talk about CSST. He did a lot of reading about it because manufacturers now want it grounded. The question is who does the bonding. His recommendation was for electrians not to do it, then they won't be named in the lawsuit. And if you do bond it, follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly. Manufacturers have different instructions for how they want their CSST bonded. The NEC doesn't required bonding. (The NEC does not allow gas pipe be used as an earthing electrode. Any bonding required by the NEC is done by the branch circuit ground wire at, for instance, a furnace.)

As you wrote, plumbers like CSST because it is so easy to run. It is easy to run because the wall thickness is so thin, about the thickness of 2 pieces of paper. Unfortunately the gas pipe may be at the potential of the earth where the gas pipe enters the building. The electrical system can be at a very different potential during an 'event'. As you wrote, there can be an arc from the CSST to other metal. Because of the thin wall that can burn a hole in the CSST. If you are lucky the arc lights the escaping gas.

There have been many fires. For example there was a class-action lawsuit filed in Arkansas that was settled in 2006. In a 2 year period in Iowa there were 200 fires linked to CSST.

As a result, manufacturers now require the CSST be bonded to the electrical system. This helps, but does not eliminate the problem. There have been fires in houses where the CSST was bonded according to the manufacturer's instructions. An example was a single 'near' lightning strike (OH) where 5 houses caught fire. At least a couple were 'properly' bonded.

Reply to
bud--

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