AC ground, copper-pex

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On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 05:44:52 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

There is a bit of debate about bonding around plastic sections in interior metal piping systems among the inspector community. It is not specifically required in the code. The code requires a supplemental grounding electrode (to a metal water pipe) in all cases. That is typically a rod and that means two in a practical sense. Otherwise you need to be able to prove it is less than 25 ohms to ground. These days most AHJs want a Ufer (concrete encased electrode in the foundation) on any new construction.
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On Friday, November 1, 2013 10:54:36 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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he ground to the water heater is ran/tied into the bus bar at the breaker. The bus ground is tied into a copper ground rod.

ust under the house (3/4") to some points closer to the 1/2" faucet pipes. I was thinking that PEX may be cheaper. However, I am not that comfortable in losing that secondary ground.

ing metal water pipe serving part of the house and replacing it with PEX, c orrect?

you must run a bond wire to tie the sections back together again. It's not a secondary ground, it's almost always the only ground for those runs.

Doesn't NEC 250.104 (A1) cover it?
(A1) Metal water piping system installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service eqpt enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode when of sufficient size, or to one or more grounding electrodes used.
I don't see how that would allow one to take out a 10 ft section of copper pipe in the basement that feeds through to other parts of the house, eg the second story bathroom, put in plastic and not bond it back together. That section going upstairs is still a metal water piping system installed in the building, no?
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Trader,
Doesn't NEC 250.104 (A1) cover it?
(A1) Metal water piping system installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service eqpt enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode when of sufficient size, or to one or more grounding electrodes used.
I don't see how that would allow one to take out a 10 ft section of copper pipe in the basement that feeds through to other parts of the house, eg the second story bathroom, put in plastic and not bond it back together. That section going upstairs is still a metal water piping system installed in the building, no?
The problem is that many DIY repairs (imagine a frozen, burst pipe) do not bond the pex. Such repairs are not subject to building inspectors. It's not just DIYers either. Some years ago I bought a replacement water softener from a large chain. They sent out a "professional". His van said Plumbing. When he was done I noticed that he had bonded the inlet pipe to the outlet pipe. Both pipes were pex. He and his helper didn't have a clue.
The code is failing in the real world.
Dave M.
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On Friday, November 1, 2013 1:22:15 PM UTC-4, David L. Martel wrote:

I agree with that. But gfre said:
"There is a bit of debate about bonding around plastic sections in interior metal piping systems among the inspector community. It is not specifically required in the code. "
That was the issue, not that homeowners are doing it without following code. I was questioning what the debate was about and cited what I think in the code says you have to bond it, so I was curious what interpretation some inspectors have that allow it. I can see if you run PEX from the basement to a bathroom, it's only convenient to get to within a few feet of the shower with PEX, so they let you leave that small remaining portion of the old meatl pipe unbonded. In that case, there is only a few feet of it, it obviously goes to the shower and it's unlikely anything else is relying on the ground. I also saw from googling somewhere that an inspector would allow 18" of metal piping to remain unbonded. Again, I get that, because at 18" it should be obvious where it goes, that nothing else is connected to it, that it's extremely unlikely to wind up energized, etc.
But as I said, I don't see why an inspector would allow you to take out a 10ft section of metal pipe in an old house where it's often not clear where all the piping goes to, you can't visibly inspect it, you don't know what might have been wired to it in the past, etc. So, I think we're in agreement, it's just that if I understand it correctly, gfre is saying some inspectors are OK with not bonding across the 10 ft plastic section and I'm curious what their basis is.

That's pretty funny or pretty bad, depending on how you look at it.

Was it supposed to have a permit and be inspected? That would catch it, presumably, at least here in NJ.
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:39:59 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

ground if the pipes are replaced with PEX? Have two connections that I am aware of. One to the cold water pipe at water heater. The other one is ground rod by the meter.

Does that mean that PEX is not feasible?

Why would anyone replace copper pipe with PEX? Copper is the best pipe available, and should last you a lifetime. You want to replace it with that cheap plastic crap that will probably fail in 10 years. You must be an IDIOT!!!!
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On 11/1/2013 8:34 PM, snipped-for-privacy@myspace.com wrote:

I think you have some serious fact checking to do. As good as copper is, it is subject to corrosion and pin holing in certain soils. Ask anyone who has had to have a plumber break through the slab to repair a leak in the copper line. There were serious failures with polybutylene piping, though it was the crimp rings used that caused most of the problems. Pex seems to have become the piping of choice at this time.
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Not because it is good, rather because it is cheap.
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I sure don't like PEX at all. I'd *MUCH* rather have copper but this house has PVC. :-( My other house is PEX which was a PITA. Hated it.
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Slow. Impossible to add to. Difficult to work with. You name it. Crap! The manifolds were goodness but I just added a bunch of ball valves in the basement of my previous house. Copper is trivial to work with (getting ready to plumb my current house with compressed air - all copper)
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Don't believe it. My experience tells me PEX is junk. I'd never have it again. No pressure and a PITA to work with in existing installations. It may be cheap and easy to install but it's a PITA to work on. Monkeys can do copper supply lines. Waste is more difficult but not as difficult as paying for it. ;-)

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snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Hmm, Cu pipe won't last when water it carries is quite acidic. Poly. pipes are OK in colder climate. Still Cu pipe brings water upto your house. Gnd braid has to be connected there to the pipe at the entry point to your house.
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wrote:

Don't do that.

Georgia isn't exactly cold.

Wrong.

What *are* you talking about?
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On 11/2/2013 7:17 PM, DanG wrote:

You just responded to a troll. They're quite common and show up from time to time and it's often the same freak who simply nym shifts. ^_^
TDD
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agreed PEX is very good, easy to run, tolerant of being frozen, it just expands a bit... ' best of all no one will steal pex, since it has no scrap values....
stealing copper plumbing is a big industry nationwide.......
a old friend is looking to buy a fixer upper, i have been going along with him.
most homes have all the copper stolen, one home had all the metal stollen including furnace and duct work, one home had most of the alunimum siding stolen.
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On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:39:59 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

if you replace the outdoor main line with pex its probably a good idea to leave the old copper line abandoned as a ground connection.
if anyone replaces a section of copper with pex then its probably best to install a copper ground jumper around the pex area
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And, the jumper better be something sturdier/heavier/thicker/larger diameter than an old conductor from a telephone cable.
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theres PRESSURE, and theres FLOW, as in gallons per minute.they arent the same.
which one is the problem?
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Pressure = Voltage Flow = Current Galloons /m = Watt/H or Kwh Depend on Back pressure = Load? Inductive or Resistive ****************************** 4 wires "with" neutral = 220/120/1/60 4 wires "without" neutral = 220/3/60 or 440/3/60
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wrote:

Are you saying that they're not related? <boggle>
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a good friend has a vehicle on natural gas.
pressure over 3,500 pounds. however the line is small limiting the flow.
while they are related, they arent the same
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