AC ground, copper-pex

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Just wondering for now. Have an all copper plumbing. What happen to my ground if the pipes are replaced with PEX? Have two connections that I am aware of. One to the cold water pipe at water heater. The other one is ground rod by the meter.
So, what to do to the cold water ground? It is required by code here. Does that mean that PEX is not feasible?
thanks richard
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:39:59 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

déjà vu
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:13:42 -0500, Gordon Shumway

Just use WD-40 and duct tape.
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On 10/30/2013 8:18 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Silly, everyone knows WD is a lubricant, not a conductor. However, metal foil duct tape could work.
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message wrote:

Silly, everyone knows WD is a lubricant, not a conductor.
However, metal foil duct tape could work.
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On 10/31/2013 10:34 AM, WW wrote:

> Chris... What is the AMP rating on Foil Duct tape. (grin) WW
Got to be good for 20 to 30 amps, if you get the good stuff.
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On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:31:55 -0400, Stormin Mormon

No, no, no. "WD" stands for "water displacement".

Flue tape?
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:39:59 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

Drive another rod 6 feet away from the existing one and connect them together with a #6 solid copper wire. That is all you need to be legal.
The ground represented by your copper pipe i the part outside underground anyway. As long as that stays copper your grounding electrode is still established.
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On 10/30/2013 6:28 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

We always used #4 from the single ground rod to the panel but are you positing that #6 should be used to connect any ground rods together? I seem to remember you stating that you were an electrical inspector at one time and I'd like your opinion on the new flexible gas lines being used in a lot of new construction and remodels. As I recall, it's a thin corrugated stainless steel or copper alloy which makes it bendable by hand and I'm guessing that an electrical arc such as one from a lightning strike could punch a hole through it regardless of the plastic jacket and I believe it could cause a fire. What can you tell me of code requirements, if any, about grounding gas lines? ^_^
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

Hi, I use a 2 inch wide silver coated copper braid as gnd buss.(I swiped a spool when I retire, LOL!) When rod is driven put some charcoal powder in the hole for improved conductivity. If you want to test how good the ground is, try to light up a bulb between gnd and hot wire. If it burns bright.... good gnd.
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On 11/9/2013 2:56 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

You don't need larger than #6 if it is "free from exposure to physical damage". A ground rod can't sink all that much current.

I recently heard an electrical inspector talk about CSST. He did a lot of reading about it because manufacturers now want it grounded. The question is who does the bonding. His recommendation was for electrians not to do it, then they won't be named in the lawsuit. And if you do bond it, follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly. Manufacturers have different instructions for how they want their CSST bonded. The NEC doesn't required bonding. (The NEC does not allow gas pipe be used as an earthing electrode. Any bonding required by the NEC is done by the branch circuit ground wire at, for instance, a furnace.)
As you wrote, plumbers like CSST because it is so easy to run. It is easy to run because the wall thickness is so thin, about the thickness of 2 pieces of paper. Unfortunately the gas pipe may be at the potential of the earth where the gas pipe enters the building. The electrical system can be at a very different potential during an 'event'. As you wrote, there can be an arc from the CSST to other metal. Because of the thin wall that can burn a hole in the CSST. If you are lucky the arc lights the escaping gas.
There have been many fires. For example there was a class-action lawsuit filed in Arkansas that was settled in 2006. In a 2 year period in Iowa there were 200 fires linked to CSST.
As a result, manufacturers now require the CSST be bonded to the electrical system. This helps, but does not eliminate the problem. There have been fires in houses where the CSST was bonded according to the manufacturer's instructions. An example was a single 'near' lightning strike (OH) where 5 houses caught fire. At least a couple were 'properly' bonded.
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On 10/30/2013 06:39 PM, snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

I would assume that you would have to run a heavy gauge copper wire back to the panel ground bus. An electric WH should already be grounded however.
If you replace any segments with PEX I would make sure that any remaining copper segments are grounded. I don't know the actual code requirements but it's just a common sense good idea. Really if you have all copper it would make sense just to do any repairs in copper to maintain ground path.
nate
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On 10/30/2013 6:39 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

The only thing grounded to the copper plumbing in my house (built '74) was the telephone connection and it WASN'T grounded since the only part of the plumbing system actually IN the ground was the plastic piping to the well casing.<g>
Grounding of the electrical system was accomplished through a grounding bar sunk into the ground and tied into the meter can at the service entrance.
As for your hot water heater being grounded... it is, but if properly installed, it's grounded only through the electrical service connection since the incoming cold piping and outgoing hot piping SHOULD be a dielectric fitting that isolates the hot and cold piping from ground and each other to prevent electrolysis.
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On Thursday, October 31, 2013 5:38:16 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

The metal plumbing system of the house by code needs to be bonded to the electrical system ground. The telephone line installed used the metal piping of the house, which in turn is bonded/grounded back to the electrical system. That's how it should have been done, anyway, so I doubt the telehone line is not grounded. And if it isn't done as described above, it's dangerous and should be fixed.

And there' no bonding over to the metal water pipes of the house?

I think whether code requires dielectric unions varies by jurisidiction.
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On 10/31/2013 05:38 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

You're right of course, I forgot about that. But the cold would also be grounded even if it's electrically insulated from the tank. And I've even heard tell about some jurisdictions wanting the hot bonded to the cold around the heater, which seems like a good idea from an electrical safety standpoint (and probably happens anyway even without a bonding wire, at least in a house where there's a metal faucet hooked to both pipes.)
nate
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On 10/30/2013 3:39 PM, snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

Go talk to the building code inspector in your jurisdiction. Only they can give you advice that will pass THEIR inspection. When I replaced my underground water service pipe with pex I found that what the codebook said and what they'd pass were not exactly the same.
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Richard,
For the reason that you raise here using water pipes as a ground is not well thought of today. It may no longer be up to code where you are. You have a ground rod by your meter. Most probably that is your ground. It doesn't hurt to have the water pipes connected to the grounding system whether they are serving as a ground also, or are separated from earth by pex.
Dave M.
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On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:37:09 AM UTC-4, David L. Martel wrote:

As we just went through exhaustively in another thread, that isn't true. If you have an incoming metal water pipe to the house, not only is it a permissible grounding electrode, it's required to be used as one of the grounding electrodes.
On the other hand, if you mean being able to use a cold water pipe at just any place in a house as a ground to tie something to, eg CATV, sat dish, etcto ground it, for new work, that I agree is not acceptable.
It may no longer be up to code where you are.

Metal water pipes *must* be bonded to ground. It's not an option.
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On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:37:09 AM UTC-5, David L. Martel wrote:

Dave,
I failed to mention (just remembered after reading other posts) that the ground to the water heater is ran/tied into the bus bar at the breaker. The bus ground is tied into a copper ground rod.
Reason I asked is I am thinking of having some of the main runs from just under the house (3/4") to some points closer to the 1/2" faucet pipes. I was thinking that PEX may be cheaper. However, I am not that comfortable in losing that secondary ground.
thanks
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On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:17:52 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@altavista.net wrote:

If I have it correct, it's not a secondary ground, whatever you mean by that. You're talking about possibly removing a section of the existing metal water pipe serving part of the house and replacing it with PEX, correct? Like replacing a section that goes to say the bathroom? If you do that you must run a bond wire to tie the sections back together again. It's not a secondary ground, it's almost always the only ground for those runs.
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