a problem with electric meters?

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On Wed, 30 May 2012 12:29:04 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

No, All you have to do is look at the smart meter.. The factory installed options are plain as day.. (filled in circles next to each install option, outlined by rectangle box almost in exact center of meter.)
Now is that so hard.. Or are you legally blind?
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wrote:

That refers to the options in the communication module. You still need the switching hardware. That is not going to fit in that meter.
How do you think they are switching 200 amps? What kind of device?
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On Thu, 31 May 2012 00:54:29 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

It's probably a latching relay of some sort.
Again, documented features of the i-210+... .
http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/products/brochures/I210_Family.pdf Look up the term "service switch".. Page 4.
"Advanced Functionality
With the addition of the fully rated 200 amp service switch, the meter is capable of pre-payment metering without all the historical cost associated with card readers or other legacy pre-payment technology. Load limiting and emergency conservation modes set this meter apart when working in conjunction with a demand response program. Having the capability to be remotely configured, as well as being firmware upgradeable, this product serves today’s needs, as well as tomorrow’s evolving requirements."
========= Page 8. (I-210+)
"Optional Functions
Factory integrated Service Switch Capability - Soft Switch Functions - AMR Communications    (AMR Interface formats include quadrature pulse, PSEM,          SPI Format-1 data, SPI Format-2 Data     - Simple Voltag Event monitoring in addition to RMS momentary voltage display "
======== On Page 9 of the PDF under the table titled "Residential Meter Selector" . Look at the middle column for "I-210+ Basic Energy",
Go down to Items 10(Service switch) and 11(Remote disconnect).
Both are listed as "Factory installed option for I-210+"..
======== From my conversations with GE'e engineer, some of the ordering options for the GE-210+ residential meters are:
O = AMR, V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor, F2 = Demand limit, J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no"0v appliance operation.) U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.
======== Now go outside and look at GE I-210+ smart meter installed on the side of your house. (if you have one). Write down the extra options installed, just to the right of "I-210+" inside a rectangle box outline (Very close to the exact center of the meter face).
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the key phrase here is "With the addition of the fully rated 200 amp service switch". that seems to indicate additional hardware is necessary for that "load management" function,and that that additional equipment(relay) would be located in the "energy managment system" he mentioned.
IOW,it would appear that the I-210+ can send a signal to an external relay to do that management,but cannot switch the load itself internally.
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Jim Yanik
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On 5/31/2012 10:25 AM, Jim Yanik wrote: ...

Yes, I think that's precisely what it says (along w/ not saying anything about the idea of connecting both sides of 240V supply to a single supply side to "shut off" 240V loads).
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I agree, I would certainly like to see a relay that can do all of this at 200 amps and fit inside that meter along with the meter hardware itself and the RF module. The idea that this might be a solid state device is even more ludicrous. My meter runs cool to the touch at a 70-80a load. No solid state device can do that.
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On Thu, 31 May 2012 13:55:35 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24391039-Money-trumps-security-in-smart-meter-rollouts-experts-say~start
scroll down to bottom of page... observe the pics of a 200 amp smart meter opened up..
Looks like some sort of latching relay..
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I think what the guy is trying to determine is whether the I-210+ meter actually has it's own internal switching ability to perform that "load management",or if it must rely on some external relay built into that "energy management system".
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You misread/misunderstood if you think I was calling you a liar. I did nothing of the sort.

seems you're a tad ovesensitive.
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Jim Yanik
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wrote:

530X communication. Also known as the i-con a. It is a bi-directional meter with nocut-off or disconnect capability. The iSA3 is required for remote disconnect.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I have the same meter.
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Because incremental kWh cost more than those already on line. If the peaks can be clipped, less capacity is necessary.

...and why would those "certain times" be important?

Yet. ;-)

I thought he was. ;-)
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" snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:

Not quite. Consider this:
Household A and Household B both use 1000 Kwh per month. 45% of house A's usage happens during peak hours (when electricity is more expensive for the utility to purchase). But 35% of house B's usage happens during peak hours. But the utility doesn't know this -> because both houses have conventional "dumb" meters that only record total use.
The utility has to come up with a blended (and equal) rate to charge these customers. Because the meters recorded the same usage, both A and B will get the same bill at the end of the month. But because house B shifted some of their usage to lower-cost hours, house A benefits from this by seeing a slightly lower bill because of the conservation or life-style efforts performed by household B.
House B can't *fully* realize or *exclusively benefit* from their own efforts to time-shift their energy usage. Only a smart-meter on both houses can make that happen. This is how smart meters make electricity billing more "equitable" between customers.
It's a similar situation in retail commerce. Credit-card use costs merchants money. So merchants increase prices to cover this cost. When a customer pays for something in cash, he's unknowingly subsidizing the merchant's credit-card operating expenses - and credit-card users realize a small benefit because of this.
Now, all that said, the real question is -> what is the possible magnitude of this imbalance or inequity between house A and house B, and does it warrant the huge outlay on the part of the utility for new, expensive meters, network infrastructure and billing systems?
Remember, it's not a question about whether or not house B would benefit if they used less TOTAL electricity per month compared to house A -> because even using old dumb metering B would see a reduction in their bill compared to A in that situation.
The real issue is -> how large a difference _can_there_be_ in the peak-use between A and B as expressed as a PERCENTAGE of their total monthly use, and what does that difference work out to be in terms of actual dollars and cents.
It turns out that these differences are SMALL when we are talking about individual residential customers, and do not warrant the huge infrastructure costs associated with measuring / billing them.
And also consider this: Over time, as more and more customers change their usage habbits and time-shift their usage, then you have a situation where the gap narrows and the usage patterns are more equal between homes, rendering the usefulness of time-of-use metering practically zero.
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I've heard the same argument about "equitable distribution of costs" to argue for everyone having a toll booth at the end of their driveway.

That's exactly what they want to do: spread out the peak load. Although it's hard to convince people to run A/C only at night, it might be possible to move uses like clothes washing and drying, hot water, and perhaps some cooking.

If you had rolling blackouts in your area at any time during the past few years not caused by catastrophic problems like tornadoes, floods, and hurricanes (these don't usually cause *rolling* blackouts unless one hit some generators), you need more generating capacity in your area. That seems to happen fairly often during really hot days in summer and occasionally during really cold evenings in winter.

It doesn't matter WHY they need more generating capacity, they still need it. And smart meters were being planned long before Obama was elected. Rolling blackouts are not new with Obama, either.
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...

But if the EPA reg's put into place on his watch actually go into effect the number and duration will skyrocket like nothing ever seen in the US before. :(
--



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C'mon, quit with the racist crap. Remember, women and Democrats read this list.
They are rolling diversitouts, now.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
...

But if the EPA reg's put into place on his watch actually go into effect the number and duration will skyrocket like nothing ever seen in the US before. :(
--





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On Sat, 26 May 2012 20:29:33 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

I liked the term "rolling greenouts". Perfect!
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snipped-for-privacy@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote in

that STILL doesn't make it "equitable",or "more equal".that's just Newspeak. a SNOW JOB for the naive and gullible.

that is due more to bad planning and local opposition to electric plants than anything else.(the "green movemnt,the ecocommunists) BUT,it's -fact- that Comrade Obama's EPA rules are shuttng down coal fired plants and reducing capacity.He has a goal.
"once is accidental,twice is coincidence,three times is enemy action." Comrade Obama blocked nuclear power by closing Yucca Mountain,is going after coal via EPA,has blocked Gulf and ANWR oil drilling,and is now going after fracking,doing everything possible to block US oil production. He killed the Keystone XL pipeline. Coal,oil,and nuclear is over 70% of US energy sources. See a pattern here? there's a concerted effort by Comrade Obama to reduce US energy supplies,which DIRECTLY diminishes the US economy. It's all part of his efforts to weaken the US economically,politically,and militarily.

if we didn't have a FEDGOV intent on blocking US energy sources,we would not need "smart meters". ISTR that the energy Dept. was created to IMPROVE US energy supplies,not stifle them.
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Jim Yanik
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wrote:

No- it is strictly supply and demand pricing. By charging more when more power is used, and less when less is used, the actual cost of generating capacity is more equally spread across the units of power consumed. To have the CAPACITY to supply more power at peak times means building more CAPACITY, which is wasted when the demand is low. Much more sensible to equalize demand so unused capacity is used, and no extra capacity needs to be built. Remember, AC power cannot be stored for later use, andfiring up and shutting off generator capacity is NOT simple, or cheap.

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On Sat, 26 May 2012 10:12:11 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote:

A smart METER cannot selectively shut off, or shed, loads. A smart "center" can (load center - or service panel)

in the low charge "night" period.

power stations not needing to be built.

to disagree that it is "the REAL" reason. Remote reading could be added to a standard meter, or "customer read" with quarterly or by-annual "agent read" to verify honesty can also be used - and have been in several areas.

Most definitely.
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