a problem with electric meters?

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On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:28:42 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I see we found another clueless moron, welcome to my kill file..
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While it's in the meter base, it does show that it can be done and that the switch is fairly small. Would seem it could easily fit in a smart meter as well.
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

The thing I don't see is he DPDT switch necessary to put both sides on the same phase ... as if you could really do that.
I only have to point at multiwire circuits in the house so see the folly of that., The idea that the main breaker would protect the SE cable is silly too. It is going to be 2 breakers in parallel when you put one phase down 2 paths.
All of this talk has me wanting to cut the seal, pull my meter and look under the bottom to see if there is a "relay cover" as described in the link Keating put up.
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:01:54 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Why wouldn't they just limit the power to some lower level, in the first place?

As you point out, it's not going to happen.
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On Jun 17, 7:51 pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Because disabling the 240V would affect only the AC, water heater, stove, dryer, etc. and leave the 120V loads on. It would shed what are usually the largest loads and also not the most critical. You could kill those for say 15 mins at a time while leaving all the 120V circuits on.
If you just set the limit at some limit, say 40 amps, when you go above that, all the meter could do would be to turn off all the power to the whole house. An obviously better strategy, though more difficult to implement would be to have the big loads be smart too. That way they could selectively turn them off, in some priority order. It could even be set so the homeowner decides the order, ie water heater first, etc.

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On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 05:47:31 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Go over the limit and have the meter call the mothership for instructions. No safety concerns at all.

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On Jun 18, 10:19 am, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

It's not an issue of safety. It's an issue of what can the meter or the mothership then do? With the disabling 240V loads you shed the largest loads which are also ones that you can more likely do without for 20 mins.
If you go over say a 40 amp limit, the meter calls the mothership. But then what? Short of calling the home to tell people to turn stuff off, which I guess is an option assuming anyone is even home, all they can do is kill the power to the whole house.

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On 6/18/2012 8:25 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Keating's link with the picture http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24391039-Money-trumps-security-in-smart-meter-rollouts-experts-say~start has some interesting discussion of smart meters. Including the meter may talk to the thermostat without calling the mothership.
Would be nice to see a good story on smart meters.
--
bud--




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On 6/18/2012 10:10 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Can't remember if it in the link or a news article, but Honeywell is supposed to have thermostats and "relay modules" that can be actuated by smart meters. Time-of-day pricing can be a major incentive to do load shedding (as it is with "demand" metering). For years there has been a program here (and I presume a lot of places) where the utility can trigger (I assume RF) a 'module' that shuts down A/C compressors for a short time. In exchange, fixed electric rates are significantly lower.
Maybe we will wind up with refrigerators talking to electric meters to order milk when we are getting low. And maybe the electric meters will run on Windows 13.

Everything on single-phasing is based on slightly more than nothing in a meter description that does not explain how the feature (if it actually exists) would be used. IMHO multiwire neutrals are a bigger problem than service neutrals. But it is all complete speculation with no reason to believe anyone has even vague thoughts of shedding by single-phasing.
--
bud--


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Our electric utility, Dominion, in east central Virginia offered us a "discount" if we permitted them to insert a relay (controlled by their "box") in the heat pump compression "demand call" circuit.
I don't remember the exact number but the "savings" to us were trivial (certainly less than $10/month). I figure extra and un-necessary switching of the compressor will add a lot more than $120/year in wear & tear. (If you don't believe me, call up you HVAC guy and ask how much it would cost to replace the compressor.)
Before we owned this property, the utility had some "modules" that could turn off the water heater when commanded. It had all been disconnected when we got the place. I salvaged some really rugged plastic boxes (about half the size of shoe boxes) which, I suppose, I will find a use for some day.
Water heater control is really, really silly. There just isn't any guarantee that switching off a particular WH will save any power.
It would be interesting to find out just how much "spinning reserve" actually costs the utility.
Sometimes significant load shedding is called for. When it is, $.05 & $.10 stuff like turning off the heat pump compressors for 10 minutes out of any hour will not do the job. The only answer is to "pull the plug" on entire towns or major portions of big cities. When that happens the "people" are put on notice that the next time the power company wants to build a new plant or install a new transmission line to not play NIMBY.

Let me jump in here.
Odds are that most shared neutral circuits found in the kitchen typically only have one significant load running at any particular time. The big loads are stand alone microwave, toasters, and "toaster ovens." Everything else is down in the noise.

Maybe so; maybe no.
We don't have any shared neutral circuits in the first place.
Even if we had completely current wiring, the microwave would have its own circuit.
It would take me the better part of an hour even to FIND the hot plates (we use them occasionally to keep food hot on the table.)
If we are talking about your "typical" consumer, it would take him the better part of an hour to convince himself the stove isn't working. (The light and "electronics" run on 120 volts.)

Oh, it's completely impractical. It would take a VERY good sized "contacter" to switch over a 100 or 200 amp service.

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How much it costs to replace a compressor isn't the issue. How much more cycling do you really think a utility is going to do with an AC? I have the RF system on my AC and the electric company activates it in emergency situations maybe 3 times a year. Even if they activate it 30 times a year, compare that to how many times the AC or heat pump cycles already on it's own and it's negligible in adversely affecting the system life.

The purpose isn't to save power. It's to reduce peak demand during critical times. A water heater is probably the BEST example of where that makes sense. Like the last few days when AC usage has pushed demand to peaks. Turning off the water heaters from say 2PM to 6PM could save the utility and all it's customers from having to pay primo prices for extra power. Or it could avoid having brownouts or complete power loss.

According to you. Power companies, who should actually know, have a very different opinion.

Whether any house in particular has or doesn't have a shared neutral circuit isn't the issue. The issue is that they exist and are code compliant. It was suggested that smart meters shed 240V loads when needed by temporarily connecting both house hots to one incoming hot. If they did that, any house with an edison circuit would have the potential to overload the shared neutral inside the house by 2X. And there is no easy way to know how any house is or isn't wired.

It's already been demonstrated that smart meters do exist that can turn the power on and off. Folks have posted the datasheet.
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:25:16 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Connecting both ends of the transformer together certainly is, as even you've pointed out!

I thought the issue was to limit power to deadbeats. If they go over the life-sustaining essentials, kill it.

Turn it off? Are you thinking (or drinking) tonight?
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On Jun 19, 12:47 am, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

net> wrote:

And I thought the issue was that it was alleged that smart meters can shed load temporarily if the utility needs to do so during a peak emergency. From earlier in the thread where discussion about this feature started:
"to answer the original question,"smart meters" are electric meters for homes that monitor your power usage continuously and keep record of how much power is used at what times of the day and night,periodically read remotely by the power company.
they may also have the capability to remotely CONTROL(shut off) some of your home's appliances to aid the power company in load managment.
You may not like the power company turning off your AC,water heater,or washer-dryer at peak demand times. "
Connecting both house hots lines to one incoming would achieve that by cutting off power to the 240V appliances, ie the ones that use the most power, but are less critical than the lights. We agree that while this would achieve the above objective, it has serious issues that make it unfeasible.
Around here, NJ, if you don't pay your bill, they don't disable your 240V stuff. They just turn off the electricity period.

Just following the thread in context.
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"
wrote:

If you ever looked at the meters (or watched them being installed), when they're not installed in the meter socket, one quickly realises the "meter base" is part of the Service METER..
Pair of single phase meter sockets...
http://jamesdigregorioelectrician.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/100_0105.3200507.jpg
Typical sideways view of 3 phase meter..
http://cdn.sulitstatic.com/images/2011/0224/021108444_dsc00857.jpg
Bottom view of single phase service meter with ground lead attached..
http://www.taxproboise.com/computer/surge_protection/200amp_surge_protection.jpg
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wrote:

If you have ever worked in the trade you know the "meter base" is the socket.
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snipped-for-privacy@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote in

And more....

"more EQUITABLY"? how is that "more equal",charging different rates for different times of the day? IMO,that is just a revenue scam. Generates more money and discourages people from running AC or heavy appliances at certain times.

I already have a meter that is remotely read. but it's only read once a month,and doesn't keep track of WHEN I'm using power.

Obama is forcing many coal plants to shut down. It's part of his attack on the US economy,punishing the "evil wealthy America" by lowering our standard of living.
Just look at the big picture. connect the dots.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
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wrote:

I can't speak for the meter you have but FPL is installing the GE 210+
http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/smartmetering/catalog/i210plus.htm
It is just an electronic meter, no "cut off" hardware or anything else
This meter feeds a low power RF device inside the meter that communicates with a transmitter on the pole and from there it relays the info to the utility in real time.
Silver Spring NIC 314
http://www.silverspringnet.com/products /
The meter seems to be capable of transmitting a couple hundred yards based on the distribution of the pole mounted access units.
http://www.silverspringnet.com/products/ni-relay.html
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On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:04:18 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

(they also relay data from meter to meter.)
As for remote disconnect, I see you haven't done your homework..
I called up GE and talked to an engineer about the various undocumented ordering options, some of ordering designations for the GE I-210+ are,
O = AMR, V2 = Simple Voltage event monitor, F2 = Demand limit, J2 = Emergency Load reduction(same leg of 110V connected to both sides, no"0v appliance operation.) U2 = Remote disconnect & Prepaid disconnect.
Now go outside and check the installed options on your smart electric meter.
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On 5/30/2012 7:22 AM, T. Keating wrote:

As I read the datasheet the 210+ has both as optional capabilities; I don't follow your above conclusion it's "just" an electronic meter (altho FPL may not have ordered the option is what you're confirming, maybe?)
As say, for any specific install checking the codes on the meters is the way to know what is actually there...of course there still can be more capability available than a utility is using (or may ever use).
--
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wrote:

To do all of that you need the energy management system attached to your service panel. I don't have one, do you?
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