I recently painted a couple of casement windows by removing them and working on them indoors. They were correctly primed and painted according to instructions, except that due to time constraints, drying time was AT LEAST
5-6 times longer (after each coat) than recommended. In other words, just right.
I did the same with the frames into which the windows were installed. Weather was in the 70s and dry for 10 days straight, so there was plenty of curing time between coats. All parts were dry when the windows were reinstalled.
Even so, the first time I opened two of the windows after they'd been installed & closed for a couple of days, the mating surfaces stuck badly, damaging the paint in one small spot. Both primer & paint were top of the line Sherwin-Williams stuff. Finish coat was a satin finish exterior latex.
"One small spot" pretty much tells what happened. That's where you said the damage was, so all the rest of the paint dried fine. You missed a bubble or run, and popped it when you put the windows back in. Then it glued window to frame. Only had to be on one surface. Try to be more careful. Attention to detail I think they call it. Holidays are the other side of that.
I have had the same problem with windows. It's been a while since I did one, but I vowed next time I'd use alkyd (oil-base for us old- timers) which I think dries much harder. --H
Was it humid inside where you painted. It took maybe 6 months for gloss latex to cure and not be sticky in my basement. Things dry much faster outside , moving air makes a big difference.
Back in stone age, we didn't paint the mating surfaces on casement windows- just applied clear sealer. The only areas where paint could fuse were where the inside face of the frame met the stop, but that is only a thin strip, so was seldom a problem. In general for applications like windows and trim, I prefer clear finishes. They seem to hold up a lot better. I know you pretty much have to paint the outside if it isn't clad, but it is easier to avoid paint facing paint there.
Everything you say makes sense if you know a little bit about paint, except where you come to the part where you say the paint was a top-of-the-line Sherwin Williams product.
You see, here in North America, over 90 percent of the latex paint that's made is made from either one of two different kinds of plastic; polyvinyl acetate (or PVA for short) or polymethyl methacrylate (PMMA for short).
You probably know polyvinyl acetate better as white wood glue. Primers and paints that use resins made from this plastic for the binder are called "vinyl acrylic" paints or "PVA" primers. Polyvinyl acetate is most commonly used to make drywall primers and "budget" priced interior latex paints.
You probably know polymethyl methacrylate better by the term "Plexiglas". In the paint industry, paints that use this plastic for the binder resin are called "100% Acrylic" paints. So, if you've ever seen that wording on a can of paint, it simply means that the plastic film the paint forms is the same kind of plastic that Plexiglas is made of.
Now, to answer your question:
The problem is that you did NOT use a top-of-the-line Sherwin Williams paint. If you had, you wouldn't have had the problem with "blocking" that you did. The term "blocking" as it applies to paint is the tendency for some paints to remain slightly tacky even when completely dry.
You see, adhesion is simply a hard thing to engineer out of the polyvinyl acetate molecule. So, when you use polyvinyl acetate as the binder in a latex paint, you can expect that even when the paint is fully dry, it's still going to remain slightly sticky to the touch. The ability of a paint to resist remaining sticky even when dry is referred to as it's "blocking resistance". PVA paints tend to have poor blocking resistance, whereas PMMA paints have excellent blocking resistance. Generally, top quality paints will always be made of PMMA plastic, and a PMMA plastic that crosslinks for higher film strength and harness. So, when you say you used a top of the line Sherwin Williams paint, that's the only thing that's not consistant with the rest of the details you provided.
Probably the best source of reliable information about latex paints on the internet is the Paint Quality Institute at:
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On that site:
Click on the "Media Center" link at the top of the page
Click on the "Publications" link on the left side of the page
Now click on the "Continuing Education Supplements" link,
Download the 6 page brochure entitled "The "For interior applications, (100%)acrylic binders afford benefits in terms of: a) adhesion under wet conditions b) resistance to waterborne stains (food stains like coffee, juice, wine, etc.) c) resistance to blocking (sticking), and d) resistance to alkaline cleaners,
but the differences are not nearly as pronounced as with exterior applications.
The Paint Quality Institute was established and is funded by the Rohm & Haas Company, who were the first to cast polymethyl methacrylate in sheets and marketed that product under the trade name "Plexiglas". Rohm and Haas were the largest manufacturer of polymethyl methacrylate plastic in North America until they were purchased by Dow Chemical in 2009. Rohm & Haas is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Dow Chemical.
------------------------------------- ..in solidarity with the movement for change in Iran.
The Homeowners Hub site is not a help forum. It's an *advertising* forum that invades real forums (like "alt.home.repair", part of "usenet") parasitically in order to generate free advertising for itself, which continually advances its search engine placement, thereby increasing its own revenue through its click- through advertising commissions.
So the first thing you should do is write them an email and tell them to quit spamming.
Then try to find your way here through proper channels. Please do a google search on "Usenet" and post the regular way.
Bzzzt. You haven't accounted for Van der Waals force or the fact that you're making a lot of ass-umptions.
Excellent. Now would you please post the complete history of Dow Chemical? Oh, and water...we definitely need the history of water to understand a sticking window. Sheesh.
Instead of going on your spiel why not, gasp!, ask Joe a question, like exactly what paint did he use? If he says top of the line, and he got it from Sherwin Williams, I'm tending to doubt he bought crap paint ill-suited for the purpose...unlike your post.
Joe, what paint did you get?
R
PS Your posts are so mind-numbing that I'm reconsidering my stance on the movement for change in Iran. :)~
Bzzzt. You haven't accounted for Van der Waals force or the fact that you're making a lot of ass-umptions.
Excellent. Now would you please post the complete history of Dow Chemical? Oh, and water...we definitely need the history of water to understand a sticking window. Sheesh.
Instead of going on your spiel why not, gasp!, ask Joe a question, like exactly what paint did he use? If he says top of the line, and he got it from Sherwin Williams, I'm tending to doubt he bought crap paint ill-suited for the purpose...unlike your post.
Joe, what paint did you get?
======================
I used this primer:
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I used this paint:
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I asked about this paint, but both of the store guys were sort of "old school" and said "Self-priming...not with old windows where there's some old paint and some bare wood. Do it the regular way."
As mentioned earlier, the windows were removed and painted indoors. I wore grey t-shirts and white sneakers while working. I used Purdy brushes. Windows were laid flat on a work surface. When they were flipped over to paint the other side, blocks were placed under the glass so the windows wouldn't be resting on the surface painted the day before. Curing time was well in excess of what was stated on the paint cans.
The frames were not laid flat during painting because my son had borrowed my floor jack, so I had no way of tipping the house on its side. And last time I did that, all the dishes fell out of the kitchen cabinets. What a mess.
The ladder was definitely the problem. Please visit www.ladderqualityinsti= tue.org and click on the "Why ladders affect paint adhesion" link. ;)
The SW data sheet says to use an oil primer on wood under the Resilience top coats. I know you were repainting, but were there any bare wood spots? I'm expecting a "No" answer.
I'm in the habit of lightly sanding glossy surfaces prior to painting (old habits...), but the primer you used specifically says, "Adheres tightly to most surfaces, including glossy paint and paneling", so that shouldn't have been an issue.
There are a couple or three things that could have happened. There's a time limit for topcoating over the primer, both minimum and maximum. How long was it before you topcoated the sash in question? The other possiblity, the one I'm guessing happened, is that a couple or three coats on each mating surface created too much buildup and the failed area was pressed tightly together. The paint may have been "fully dry" for painting purposes, but not 100% dry on a molecular basis, so the two surfaces pressed together was enough to cause bonding on a molecular level. I was only half-kidding about the Van der Waal forces in my earlier post.
I don't know how old your windows are, or how many previous coats of paint they had on, but at some point the window has to be planed/ sanded down to allow for the new paint buildup. Most times the only way you can tell when this needs to be done is to have an adhesion failure such as yours.
Check out the pulled paint on both surfaces and see if you can tell which coating failed. Maybe it was the primer to old surface bond, or the topcoat to primer. This should help guide you in future repainting.
The ladder was definitely the problem. Please visit
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and click on the "Why ladders affect paint adhesion" link. ;)
The SW data sheet says to use an oil primer on wood under the Resilience top coats. I know you were repainting, but were there any bare wood spots? I'm expecting a "No" answer.
I'm in the habit of lightly sanding glossy surfaces prior to painting (old habits...), but the primer you used specifically says, "Adheres tightly to most surfaces, including glossy paint and paneling", so that shouldn't have been an issue.
There are a couple or three things that could have happened. There's a time limit for topcoating over the primer, both minimum and maximum. How long was it before you topcoated the sash in question? The other possiblity, the one I'm guessing happened, is that a couple or three coats on each mating surface created too much buildup and the failed area was pressed tightly together. The paint may have been "fully dry" for painting purposes, but not 100% dry on a molecular basis, so the two surfaces pressed together was enough to cause bonding on a molecular level. I was only half-kidding about the Van der Waal forces in my earlier post.
I don't know how old your windows are, or how many previous coats of paint they had on, but at some point the window has to be planed/ sanded down to allow for the new paint buildup. Most times the only way you can tell when this needs to be done is to have an adhesion failure such as yours.
Check out the pulled paint on both surfaces and see if you can tell which coating failed. Maybe it was the primer to old surface bond, or the topcoat to primer. This should help guide you in future repainting.
R ====================
The windows are the originals from 1956, when the house was built. The next coating they'll get will consist of dead presidents. New windows, in other words. The current ones look great when they're painted, but this is Western NY. It gets cold here, and I'm tired of doing the clear plastic dance every October.
The first window I painted was a non-movable one on the garage. I started with oil primer, but the temp was so high (even with the window in shade) that the primer began to gum up as I was applying it. So, I switched to latex for the rest of the windows. Maybe that was the problem. In any case, the windows are in much better shape than they were before.
If you used an acrylic paint, there is one remaining possibility I can think of, but it will go away with time. That is, the stickiness you're experiencing will go away by itself.
And, it involves the colour of the paint, not the colour of the ladder.
Nowadays, few paint companies use coloured tint bases any more. So, if you want a red, green or blue paint, they take a tint base with NO coloured pigments in it, that would otherwise dry transluscent and colourless, and add lots and lots and lots of colourant to that tint base in the paint tinting machine to make it the desired colour.
Now, that colourant they're adding consists of coloured particles (called "pigments") dispersed in glycerine. The reason why they use glycerine as the base for paint tinting colourants is because it is readily soluble in both water and mineral spirits. So, the same colourants (and hence, the same paint tinting machine) can be used to tint both latex and oil based paints.
And, it's the AMOUNT of glycerine that may have been added to the paint that may be the source of the problem. Glycerine is very slow to evaporate, and the presence of a lot of glycerine in your paint would greatly extend it's drying time. This is the reason why you can potentially ruin a latex paint by adding too much colourant to it.
But, that glycerine will eventually evaporate from the paint film, and so that stickiness should also go away by itself if that is what's causing it.
------------------------------------- ..in solidarity with the movement for change in Iran.
{slapping my head} Hey Nestor, your middle name wouldn't be Doh!, would it?
Nice of you to admit you were wrong, nimrod.
I don't even know where you're going with this, but I already know based on past experience that you're going to be wrong. Let's wait and see - this should be fun!
Yep! I was right, you are a nimrod. So all of that titanium dioxide in every paint out there dries translucent, huh? You really are a piece of work. The pigments in paint are the expensive stuff (BTW, pigment and colorants are not interchangeable words in this instance). The colorants are more expensive than the titanium dioxide pigment base that gives all paint its white color. So, to save money on the pigment cost, they spend more money on the colorant. I know you don't think about it, but do you even read what you write, or just start typing?
Do you think it's even remotely possible that that's why _any_ paint manufacturer specifically limits how much colorant can be put into a can of paint? Hmmm? So, now, instead of admitting that you're blowing smoke out of your fundamental orifice, it's the _paint manufacturers_ that don't know what they're doing. Of course - that should have been obvious.
Interesting. Totally stupid and wrong, but interesting. Joe didn't add any pigments, if in fact any pigment was added at all. IF pigment was added, it was added by the Sherwin Williams pro, who, unlike you, actually know what the f*ck they're talking about. Again, instead of asking a question you pull stuff out of your ass. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Joe's windows are white, or close to it. Joe, mind answering the question - what color paint did you use? I'm hungry and some donuts would go nicely. Thanks.
So, let's see if I've got this straight. The paint manufacturer not only doesn't know about pigments in paint, but they also don't understand about drying and recoat time. Are you for real? Joe waited _way_ longer than typical/recommended. Your advice and judgement is sorely lacking, Nestor. Nestor is an appropriate name for you, BTW. This from Wikipedia - kids, I am not making this up! "Yet at the same time Nestor=92s advice is frequently ineffective." Even the ancients knew you to be a pompous boor.
You should come with a warning sign - Here There Be Idiots.
Now I'm totally against the change in Iran. Since you're wrong on everything else, it can't be a good idea.
I begin to see why you're playing in the Homeblowersbub.com sandbox. I guess Miss McGuillicuddy is out sick and the substitute teacher is letting you run amok.
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