30A wiring advice

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First of all, it is most likely not up to code where you might be. With that said, #12 is actually rated for 25 amps under certain conditions. NEC (USA) just requires a 20 circuit protection on it in construction. In panels, we can use the full rating of the wire but must allow for #10 field wiring if between 20 and 30 amps..
Second of all, most likely your load my not be a full 30 amps. If you have a way to do it, test it.
Next, the wires in parallel will have no problem with 30 amps from a technical stand point. Yours is a code issue, which may be a safety issue.
I don't recommend you do it, but there is an answer.
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30 Sep 2003 23:39:45 :-

Your location, Switzerland, is reasonably obvious to those who consider your message's header. However, you should have stated it explicitly. Those who do not do so are generally assumed to be Americans - and thus generally non-conversant with international standards.
Perhaps, personally, you are American - no born-and-bred European should expect to find "gauge" size wire available retail within the EU - and CH is within, though not of, the EU.
There must be a professional need for wire rated at well over 30A; consult a friendly professional, or your local equivalent of RS Components
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Many of us Americans are indeed ethno-centric, not realizing what the standards are or differences in other parts of the word...
However, not all of us are like that and some of us even know that the AWG stands for American Wire Gauge, and perhaps this might not be the standard in use for European countries. And some of us do indeed understand that CH is geographically within the EU (mostly) except that sometimes a CH is actually an LI.
Beachcomber
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not snipped-for-privacy@nospam.xyz (Beachcomber) wrote in message

What is being overlooked here is that the non-USA way of thinking is not nearly as do it yourself (DIY) as we have here in the USA. Much more wiring/painting/remodeling, etc is hired out than we are used to here in the USA. So the availability of things like heavier gauge wire is really limited. I would suggest looking for a commercial demolition site and scrounging the wire, if it is not against the local law to scrounge.
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
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than it is in Europe? After all, in Switzerland, it might be that if my income is higher than an electrician's income, I would probably hire somebody to do my electrical work because it wouldn't be worth my time to do it myself. And if my income is lower than an electrician's income, I probably wouldn't be able to do what an electrician can do - in which case I would probably hire this work out anyway. In the US, on the other hand, it's not inconceivable that there are many more people who can do what an electrician can do but who don't make as much money as an electrician. In such an environment, you would probably find many more do-it-yourselfers.
Just a thought. :-)
Robert
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On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:17:44 -0400, Robert Calvert wrote:

It depends how you cost your free time. If you were going to be earning money during the time you were DIYing it might make more sense to get someone else to do it. If you were on the other hand doing nothing else at the time, then you've effectively earned the electrician's fee for yourself by doing it yourself. In between those two extremes there's a cost-benifit tradeoff - will you pay someone to do the job to increase your leisure time?
--
Trevor Barton

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On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:22:44 GMT, the renowned Trevor Barton

When doing personal projects, the taxation regime enters into it. If I gross 50 Euros/hour and work an *extra* hour in Europe I might only net 25 (assuming a *marginal* rate of 50%- the average rate will be lower, of course). If I pay the electrician (who has his or her own taxes to pay) more than 25 Euros for an hour's work, I'm in a loss position compared to not working the extra hour and doing it myself. If he's charging 50 then I can take 1-1/2 hours to do that job and buy a few tools and still come out even (and get to keep the tools). If it's a business expense, then the taxation considerations disappear and I can use the 50 Euros figure.
As taxation is (was?) highest in the Scandinavian countries, that may account for the popularity of DIY-type stuff like Ikea. Here in Canada, this problem is solved in the home renovation field by a large contribution from the underground economy, which evens out the tax thing- the $1000 cash after tax to put a carpet down (less expenses) goes right into the pocket of some guy with a pickup and a free weekend. Not everyone does it, but enough that it's a factor.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
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did anybody actually answer this one eventually?

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X-No-Archive: Yes
Someone here mentioned main entry wires for multi-thousand ampere service uses paralleled wires. If this is ok, why not in smaller scale?
Joe 90 wrote:

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Short answer:Because the NEC dose not allow it for wires smaller than 1/0. Longer answer: Because if one wire was damaged, opened up, etc, the entire load would be carried by the other wire, which is greatly over the rating of the other wire and is a fire waiting to happen.
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Then use 4 wires in parallel and solder them together at the ends to ensure this doesn't happen.

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Actually, there are exceptions for flexibility and elevators and the like, but in most circumstances....
Multiple conductors are allowed to allow extremely large installations to be fed through normal conduits in workable sizes. Special rules apply. For household size jobs, the economies of scale say 'spend the money'.
Soldering won't help a wire failing in the middle.

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In the US, parallel conductors are not allowed in the smaller sizes, and connections that depend on solder are not allowed for service conductors. Also, if this was allowed, wouldn't it be a lot more material and labor than just using a single wire of the correct size?
Ben Miller
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Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:17:23 GMT, "Ben Miller"

I like the way you quote the source of your misinformation.
Besides, this is posted in alt.home.repair, not engineering specs for the space shuttle.
Get a life.
PJ
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advice', on Wed, 24 Dec 2003:

I would expect soldered connections in terminal blocks to be banned, because the solder creeps under pressure and the clamping screws loosen. Soldered connections are not allowed in Europe.

, where people know about wiring codes.

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Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
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I agree with your comments about soldered connections in terminal blocks. However, soldered (or crimped or brazed) connections are required in the UK if the join will not be accessible for maintenance and inspection.
One way which is acceptable to do this is to use screw terminals, and then also solder the conductors to the terminals. Solder creep is not an issue in this case. However, most commonly, such connections are done by crimping -- soldering is a skill which installation electricians would rarely have.
--
Andrew Gabriel

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"PJx" arrogantly wrote >

even in alt.home.repair we try to give the best advise we know. You obviously don't give a rats ass about anyone's safety.
Get Lost Bozo while "we" get a Life and save a few lives from you!
FYI it was posted on the engineering group and others that is why you see an engineers reply!
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National Electrical Code (2002):
230.81 Connection to Terminals. The service conductors shall be connected to the service disconnecting means by pressure connectors, clamps, or other approved means. Connections that depend on solder shall not be used.
310.4 Conductors in Parallel. Aluminum, copper-clad aluminum, or copper conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger, comprising each phase, neutral, or grounded circuit conductor, shall be permitted to be connected in parallel (electrically joined at both ends to form a single conductor).
Ben Miller
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B. MILLER ENGINEERING
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This is Turtle
Save your bandwide. Your speaking to a Troll with no understanding of what you say.
TURTLE
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This is Turtle.
Earth to PJ.
It is not allowed to troll below 200 feet of the air space for you will get into trouble with high electric wires. You know the Lesstricity stuff.
TURTLE
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