220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?

[Nightcrawler®]

240 off of a 480 system? How did you manage that? It should be 277.

[krw]

Not when there isn't one. You're an illiterate liar, but that's nothing new to anyone here, either. If there is a phase relationship there is one. If it's zero, but opposite direction, that's what it is. I'm sorry of you flunked CrackerJax-U EE-101. Get a refund.

You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new.

[Danny D'Amico]

I'd *love* to know all of this information!

For example, given this is the service entrance, can anyone tell if my neutral is connected to ground at the house or if it's *not* connected to a ground at the house?

Here's a closeup of the connections to the ground/neutral of the house:

If anyone can explain how the neutral in the picture is different (or the same) as the ground, that would be enlightening to me (and others)!

[Danny D'Amico]

I've never noticed one ...

[Danny D'Amico]

It turns out that I *am* the only customer on the feed.

The power shoots off from the distribution at the road, and it feeds only me.

So, I have a dedicated transformer (lucky me) that they always come onto my property to clean up around.

How does that change anything for me? Is it good? Bad?

[trader4]

Far from it. Here, once again, from an IEEE paper. You do know the IEEE, (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). Most widely respected EE organization in the country. The paper was presented at a conference of power industry engineers.

4520128

Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of th e transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standar d rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whic h now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire s ystems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the second ary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated b y 120 degrees."

Read the last two sentences. Who's the fool now?

How nice. krw claims he addresses every claim I've made. Which of course is a lie, because right here you just cut out the whole section where I cite the IEEE, which cuts to the core of the whole discussion. It shows I'm right, it's very specific, clear and to the point and it was presented at an IEEE conference for power engineeers. So, of course you can't address it, it's irrefutable. Instead you hurl the usual insults.

In case you missed it, I posted it again, just for you. But more so others can see who's right and who the real liar is here.

[Danny D'Amico]

You seem to understand this muuuuch better than I do.

Can you give me any insight as to how these two boxes work:

(they're for the generator which kicks on automatically whenever the power it out).

The generator doesn't run the whole house, but most of it. But, why the two huge boxes?

Note: the main breakers are on the other side of this wall.

[Dean Hoffman]

I didn't explain that very well. The supply is 240 single phase at the bin sites. We kick it up to 480 and add a phase converter for the third leg to power the pivots.

[Doug Miller]

Nightcrawler® wrote in news:l6dfsi$2ul$1 @dont-email.me:

Wow. Amazing. "180 degrees out of cycle" = "same phase"????

Try "180 degrees out of cycle" = *out of* phase.

[Doug Miller]

Danny D'Amico wrote in news:l6e14h$eu3$ [e-mail]:

The National Electrical Code requires that it be connected to ground within some specific (and short) distance from where it enters the house. Whether it actually *is* so connected or not is a different matter. It certainly *should* be.

That big bare copper wire that loops up over the top of the service panel and back down the right side is your grounding conductor. Follow that, and see what it's attached to.

[Doug Miller]

Danny D'Amico wrote in news:l6e1di$eu3$ [e-mail]:

It may not project very far above ground level (or at all).

[Danny D'Amico]

There is no cable where I live. There aren't enough people to make it worth running the cable here, I guess. The only wires we get from utilities are telephone and electricity. We all have to make our own water and find a place to put it when we're done. Plus we all have to figure out how to heat our homes and hot water heaters (most are on propane, but some are on wood).

But, there is a phone "demarcation" box (I had to look up "demark") inside the garage (in the center of my picture). There's also a hole in the garage wall, so, I'll stick a flashlight there and look.

If I find a rod going into the ground, I'll snap a photo of it.

I still am confused as to WHERE exactly the ground goes into the ground versus where the neutral goes into the ground.

I know some say they *both* go into the ground at the house, but, I really would like to see that, physically, in my panel to make sure that it is truly the case.

[Nightcrawler®]

They are what they state on the cover. Not knowing how your house is wired, I can only speculate. Do you have more than one sub-panel? Meaning more than one enclosure in your house that has circuit breakers?

Essentially your back-up generator has a circuit that monitors utility voltage. It appears that you have at least two 2-pole circuit breakers leaving your meter-main enclosure via the same raceway. How things turn out after this, I cannot say. I would suspect that at least one of these circuits goes to one of the transfer switches,I can only speculate.

What happens is that when the power goes out the monitoring circuit of the generator will activate the transfer switch. How the logic of this function is carried out is still speculation. Some simple circuits just use a relay powered by the utility, and when the utility fails it closes contacts that activate the transfer switch and starts the generator. When the transfer switch activates the lines to your sub-panels are cut off from the meter- main and the output of the generator is isolated from back feeding the utility.

Since you have two transfer switches you might have two sub-panels, or one transfer switch cuts off the meter-main while the other transfer switch engages what are considered essential loads in your house. I cannot say with what information I have. There are interlocks that will prevent an accidental back feed of the utility and when the utility comes back on the transfer switches will cut-off the generator output, re-engage utility, then turn off the generator instantly or after a specified time period to maintain rapid switching capability in case the utility just cuts in and cuts back out again.

Once again, not knowing the control logic of your system or the power distribution of your system only allows me to speculate. It looks like you have a good set up, though.

What part of the Santa Cruz Mountains do you live in? I grew up in the San Lorenzo Valley and I used to live on the Santa Cruz side of Los Gatos. A few miles south of Summit Road. Its a fun drive to take Summit to Skyline, and then up to 92. Hang a left and hit 1 then head North.

[Danny D'Amico]

Yup. There are three, actually five, no, seven, if I count the wells and pool equipment.

But, inside the house, there are only three (counting the main panel).

[Danny D'Amico]

Very near to Summit Road. The views are stupendous. But the power is horrendous! :)

[Nightcrawler®]

When you state "main panel", do you mean the meter-main outside?

[Danny D'Amico]

I understand what you're saying.

The two things that confuse me are: a) Why TWO big boxes? and, b) WHy so big anyway?

What the heck is in there? A huge switch? Lots of circuits? A big heat sink? I guess I could open them up and look. :)

To clarify though, the generac does kick in whenever the power dies. It also runs once a week, to charge the battery. I don't think it powers the house when it does that though. So, somehow, the circuitry must be cut off for the battery charging.

Also, almost the entire house, but, not the entire house is energized when the generac kicks in. Most of the lights and outlets are energized (which means both interior circuit breaker panels are being fed), as are most of the outlets.

But the outside of the house also has panels, which run the pool and well equipment, which I don't think is energized when the power is out.

Come to think of it, the well must be energized? Or we'd run out of water. So, I'm actually not sure what is energized since most things seem to work when the generator kicks in.

[Nightcrawler®]

West or East of 17?

[Wes Groleau]

On 11-17-2013, 21:17, [e-mail] wrote:> Idiot. I've responded*MANY* times. You keep saying*exactly* the > same thing in different ways and expect a different, wrong, answer.

Indeed. You should have learned two dozen posts back tht you'll just keep getting the same wrong answer.

Oh, the irony....

[Nightcrawler®]

The pool probably is not, but I imagine your well is. Unless you have a large storage tank with accompanying pressure tank and pump. It is odd that there is not a utility fed battery charger, but that "is" an extra expense both in having a second battery charger and the safety interlocks to isolate the two. While charging the generator is only running the battery charger. This is a scheduled event, or there are sensing circuits for battery voltage.

The transfer switches can be a bit large, and I imagine there are other relays for interlocks and who knows what else is inside. Pop the covers and take a look. Turn the main breaker off and see if you can trace the wiring out. There might even be a schematic inside each cover with information about the specific function of each transfer switch. A good installer would leave such information on premise, somewhere.

A powered transfer switch is essentially a large multi-pole relay. There are many different types and their functions and wiring methods differ from one model/concept to another. Get the serial numbers off of your units and look them up. You might even be able to find a manual online. I have never worked with residential transfer switches, nor Generac stand alone units. The transfer switches I have worked with are about the size of (or larger than) the enclosures your switches are in.

Have fun and be careful while poking around.