Although I have great opposite of sympathy to burglars and attackers, I
would support deadly force laws requiring you to not shoot perps that
surrender to you for following arrest by police (call 9-1-1 - "I am
holding a burglar at gunpoint for arrest - please send cops!").
- Don Klipstein ( firstname.lastname@example.org)
If such a law were in place, the situation could easily develop wherein you,
in honest fear of your life, popped a do-bad and had to defend yourself
against the claim "he was trying to surrender!"
Conversely, if the goblin knows he's going to die, surrender or no, he might
as well keep resisting.
It's not an easy call on an individual case.
I come down on the side of killing them - just for the deterrence
Right. I don't mind *guidelines* that suggest when to not use deadly
force, but these should not be enforcable with criminal or civil
penalties. The previously-innocent victim deserves ALL of the benefit
of the doubt. It's important to remember that the criminal *chose* to
put themselves in the situation, and more importantly had time to
plan, prepare, practice fighting moves, etc, while the innocent victim
didn't choose to participate, and doesn't have the luxury of being
prepared (at that specific instant). It's perfectly reasonable for
the adrenalin rush of being forced to confront a goblin to cause
someone to over-react in a way they might not if they had time to
prepare, and they shouldn't be penalized for that.
And unless the criminal is willing to surrender *completely*, with
*no* chance of waiting for a moment of inattention to spring up or
turn around and attack again, it may well be reasonable to kill a
I'm just not comfortable prosecuting (or allowing the family of a
criminal to sue) a homeowner or other crime victim. Make it a
"learning experience" to suggest good ways for others to handle in the
future, sure, but that's as far as I'd go. People committing crimes
simply don't have the same situational rights as others.
I see you're posting from Kansas.
In 2007, your governor signd a "Castle Doctrine" bill which allows the use
of deadly force against a home intruder - without warning or the duty to
retreat (the new law also does away with the need to obtain a permit prior
to buying a handgun).
Kansas does not seem to have a statute specifically authorizing the use of
deadly force to protect the property of another. It does, however, have a
general force statute on "citizen's arrest."
"21-3216: Private person's use of force in making arrest. (1) A private
person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful
arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in
using if he were summoned or directed by a law enforcement officer to make
such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause
death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force
is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another..."
If you get a chance, look up "Joe Horn" to see how other jurisdictions
handle similar situations.
If a person is looking in windows or acting suspiciously, that may be a
reason to take notice or say something. If a person is just strolling down
the street, different story. I've walked down many a different street,
just for the change of scenery. If anyone asks who I am, they should first
show me their badge.
Of course these day, I may be stopping for an ibuprophin break too.
BTDT. Mr. Irving is my last instructor, and he does all the Internal
Affairs Officer shootings in Metro's jurisdiction. Or at least, he DID at
last contact. Relatives that I cannot name are embedded in Metro. Yet,
Utah does not recognize Nevada, although Nevada recognizes Utah. It is a
costly process, about $75, a day of my life, that I care not to go through
again for the convenience of carrying in Nevada. I just carry pepper spray,
and as all my handguns are already legally registered in Nevada, it would be
a drastic situation if I ever had to prove culpability. I'd just make a
Right. What was that movie with Tommy Lee Jones as a prison warden who, in
trying to escape the rioting mob, ran down the corridor to a locked door? He
pulled out his teeny pepper spray can and tried to hose down about 50 rabid
cons bent on bothering him.
Didn't work too well.
'Course guns aren't allowed in a prison...
Yes,and a perp who has a bullet in him must go to a doctor or hospital
emergency room to get treatment,and such bullet wounds MUST be reported by
law;so the perp ends up getting caught by police.
BUT,generally once the gun comes out,the perp(s) decides to turn and
flee,so there's no need to shoot,and it's a crime to actually shoot a
fleeing person,as they no longer are a threat.
Thanks for the correction. I should have said:
"Pepper spray doesn't work on crack-heads, in the rain, when the wind is
blowing the wrong way, or across the street. Plus, pepper spray can be
washed off, leaving no permanent damage. All in all, pepper spray is not as
universal a deterrent as one or more bullets.
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