21 Things a Burglar Won't Tell You

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Although I have great opposite of sympathy to burglars and attackers, I would support deadly force laws requiring you to not shoot perps that surrender to you for following arrest by police (call 9-1-1 - "I am holding a burglar at gunpoint for arrest - please send cops!").
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Don Klipstein wrote:

Why?
If such a law were in place, the situation could easily develop wherein you, in honest fear of your life, popped a do-bad and had to defend yourself against the claim "he was trying to surrender!"
Conversely, if the goblin knows he's going to die, surrender or no, he might as well keep resisting.
It's not an easy call on an individual case.
I come down on the side of killing them - just for the deterrence possibility.
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wrote:

Right. I don't mind *guidelines* that suggest when to not use deadly force, but these should not be enforcable with criminal or civil penalties. The previously-innocent victim deserves ALL of the benefit of the doubt. It's important to remember that the criminal *chose* to put themselves in the situation, and more importantly had time to plan, prepare, practice fighting moves, etc, while the innocent victim didn't choose to participate, and doesn't have the luxury of being prepared (at that specific instant). It's perfectly reasonable for the adrenalin rush of being forced to confront a goblin to cause someone to over-react in a way they might not if they had time to prepare, and they shouldn't be penalized for that.
And unless the criminal is willing to surrender *completely*, with *no* chance of waiting for a moment of inattention to spring up or turn around and attack again, it may well be reasonable to kill a supposedly-fleeing-or-surrendering criminal.
I'm just not comfortable prosecuting (or allowing the family of a criminal to sue) a homeowner or other crime victim. Make it a "learning experience" to suggest good ways for others to handle in the future, sure, but that's as far as I'd go. People committing crimes simply don't have the same situational rights as others.
Josh
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SteveB wrote:

I see you're posting from Kansas.
In 2007, your governor signd a "Castle Doctrine" bill which allows the use of deadly force against a home intruder - without warning or the duty to retreat (the new law also does away with the need to obtain a permit prior to buying a handgun).
Kansas does not seem to have a statute specifically authorizing the use of deadly force to protect the property of another. It does, however, have a general force statute on "citizen's arrest."
"21-3216: Private person's use of force in making arrest. (1) A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a law enforcement officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another..."
If you get a chance, look up "Joe Horn" to see how other jurisdictions handle similar situations.
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On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 12:15:27 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
[snip]

INCLUDING the innocent people walking on a public street.

Suspected of getting exercise. That's a crime now?

So the innocent people get shot too?
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wrote:

Not as long as you get your exercise permit first.

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wrote:

The description given was people looking into other people's windows

Asking people who they are is not a crime either.

If they present an imminent threat of bodily harm.
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If a person is looking in windows or acting suspiciously, that may be a reason to take notice or say something. If a person is just strolling down the street, different story. I've walked down many a different street, just for the change of scenery. If anyone asks who I am, they should first show me their badge.
Of course these day, I may be stopping for an ibuprophin break too.
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wrote:

How would you feel if I just took your picture?
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Perfectly legal, but I'd probably just cal you an asshole or similar. Good chance the second photo would be overexposed from the reflection of my bright white ass though.
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wrote:

Steve,
Take the class in Las Vegas (on Rancho). The instructor teaches NV/UT and is certified. Maybe the same cost for just the UT lesson and you get both permits?
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BTDT. Mr. Irving is my last instructor, and he does all the Internal Affairs Officer shootings in Metro's jurisdiction. Or at least, he DID at last contact. Relatives that I cannot name are embedded in Metro. Yet, Utah does not recognize Nevada, although Nevada recognizes Utah. It is a costly process, about $75, a day of my life, that I care not to go through again for the convenience of carrying in Nevada. I just carry pepper spray, and as all my handguns are already legally registered in Nevada, it would be a drastic situation if I ever had to prove culpability. I'd just make a phone call.
Steve
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SteveB wrote:

Pepper spray doesn't work on crack-heads, in the rain, when the wind is blowing the wrong way, across the street, or in any number of other circumstances that are irrelevant to a bullet.
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Or in a full fledged furball. Saw a study once that indicated even cops sprayed their partners just as much as the perp when in a restraint situation.
--
Searching is half the fun: life is much more manageable when thought
of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.
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Kurt Ullman wrote:

Right. What was that movie with Tommy Lee Jones as a prison warden who, in trying to escape the rioting mob, ran down the corridor to a locked door? He pulled out his teeny pepper spray can and tried to hose down about 50 rabid cons bent on bothering him.
Didn't work too well.
'Course guns aren't allowed in a prison...
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"across the street" is generally not much of a threat. sure,there are exceptions...

Worse,it's too easy to get it in -your own- eyes and nose.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
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But pepper spray can be washed off and leave no permanent damage to the perp. A bullet can give lead poisoning and cause serious illness over time.
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wrote in message

Yes,and a perp who has a bullet in him must go to a doctor or hospital emergency room to get treatment,and such bullet wounds MUST be reported by law;so the perp ends up getting caught by police.
BUT,generally once the gun comes out,the perp(s) decides to turn and flee,so there's no need to shoot,and it's a crime to actually shoot a fleeing person,as they no longer are a threat.
--
Jim Yanik
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Thanks for the correction. I should have said:
"Pepper spray doesn't work on crack-heads, in the rain, when the wind is blowing the wrong way, or across the street. Plus, pepper spray can be washed off, leaving no permanent damage. All in all, pepper spray is not as universal a deterrent as one or more bullets.
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On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 21:21:46 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Notice that the paragraph I replied to said nothing about windows. It DID say "walking around".

What about them being "suspects", an in what I replied to? What are they suspected of?

Then THOSE aren't innocent. I'm talking about those who are.
Do you have a reading problem? :-)
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