2- vs. 3-prong outlets

[Suzie-Q]

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

[Mike Ruskai]

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters.

-- - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

[Charles Spitzer]

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to be properly wired with a ground.

[Jeff Wisnia]

If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Jeff

[Pick]

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in :

I'm in that situation now:( One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any electrician type have an opinion on that?

Thanks,

Pick

[Joseph Meehan]

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.

They still make the old style outlet. You may need to visit an electric supply house to find one. Even medium size cities usually have one. They supply the pros.

If you check to make sure the box is grounded, it may be, then you can use a modern outlet. But PLEASE Suzie, don't listen to Mike, if you are not sure it has a ground, don't take the chance, do it right.

[w_tom]

Two prong outlets are sold because you cannot and must not put a three prong receptacle in a box that is not grounded. Yes, what Mike Ruskai posted is completely irresponsible and unacceptable.

Two choices. First, have a friend in any big city mail you the two prong receptacle. They cost well less than $1. They are sold in any Home Depot, Loews, Sears Hardware, etc. Two prong outlets are that commonly available.

Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex Receptacle:

Electrical code specifically lists the second solution - which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist. Attach label to GFI faceplate.

Both soluti> I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the

[Oceans 2K]

or

Both are authorized Leviton distributors. Part# is 223-I

I = Ivory and W = White

No need for the long drive. Both sites have 1-800#s if you have any difficulties ordering online.

[Jay]

GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with

14/2...just that the ground was "floating").

Jay

Pick wrote:

[zxcvbob]

What's a "CO"?

GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you to use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on them that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug in tester thing.

-Bob

[dadiOH]

Certificate of occupancy. What one needs before one can move into a new = home.

--=20 dadiOH _____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at

[Doug Miller]

Yes, and most hardware stores will have them, even in small towns.

If your local hardware stores don't have them, try a farm supply store. Or ask at the local Farm Bureau Co-op (they probably won't sell them, but they probably *will* be able to tell you who does).

[Mike Ruskai]

It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and even laughable.

-- - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

[Mike Ruskai]

Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not grounded.

-- - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

[Mike Ruskai]

There are countless ways to annoy possible future owners of a house. Unless a sale is imminent, worrying about future owners is no way to dictate how to handle a simple problem like replacing a busted outlet. A sale in this day and age would almost certainly be contingent upon updating the wiring of the house, and no competent home inspector is going to think one three-prong outlet in the middle of many two-prong outlets is actually grounded.

There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet.

-- - Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

[Joseph Meehan]

Mike Ruskai wrote: ....

Whatever, Buba.

I just hope your advice (or actions) never cause someone harm.

[Lawrence Wasserman]

Yes they do

[Chris Lewis]

According to Jay :

The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why you failed inspection.

The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground.

They work just fine without grounds.

[Chris Lewis]

Right. Which is why the NEC explicitly disallows that.

The CEC used to recommend filling the third prong. Not anymore.

Install GFCIs, use the "not grounded" stickers that come with them and stick 'em to all of the outlets you've protected with the GFCI.

That's all you need to do.

[Aside from NOT interconnecting grounds on outlets that are on a 2 wire circuit.]

[Chris Lewis]

According to w_tom :

Electrical code specifically lists the second solution -

Once you install a GFCI outlet on a groundless circuit, you _are_ permitted to install/replace with ordinary three prong outlets downstream of it (the GFCI itself is three prong obviously ;-), provided:

a) you label them as GFCI-protected without ground (stickers come with GFCIs for that purpose) b) do not interconnect the grounds on any of the outlets.

I would not install a ground strap from a 3 wire outlet to the box:

a) it's pointless in most cases (often already accomplished by strap of outlet on a metal box.)

b) May increase risk of ground wire interconnect in multiple outlets (see (b) above) (ie: cable armor).

The ground prong in a groundless circuit is _supposed_ to be completely un-connected. Half-measures make it more dangerous, not less.