note you said 15 years........ thats a long time..
before all the wild unpredictable weather that wipes out entire communities and costs insurance megabucks in losses
plus insurance is a competive business. why should homeowners insurance companies take on higher risk customers? that hurts their bottom line
K&T homes are functionally obsolete, with just ONE outlet per bedroom, few outlets overall, requiring lots of extension cords, with a long lifetime to aquire hacked upgrades, like the photo in this discssion. K&T doesnt use boxes for connections, thats a real hazard. a buddy of mine has K&T and has connections fry.
will the posters who claim K&T is fine please post if they still have it???
every time this topic comes up we have the same discussion
Part of our building at work dates back to about 1890. A large storage closet and a small utility room each have one light fixture with K&T and neither is ever used. Insurance inspector said they must be changed. The rest of the building had been rewired decades ago.
FYI, you constantly charge that houses with K&T have ONE outlet per bedroom. This is pure nonsense. The original wiring was very sparse but virtually all the houses with K&T that I've worked in have added new circuits, outlets, central air, breaker panels, etc. over the years, just like houses built post K&T have done.
As with any type of electrical wiring. It depends upon the person doing the work. The same is true with wiring installations done fifty years ago, or done yesterday. Properly done or improperly done wiring has no more relevance to K&T than any other type of wiring material.
"most"?. Sorry, I don't deal in mindless speculation, and neither do the insurance companies in my area. The insurance company listing for wiring in older houses in this area are termed "mixed". If they feel that there is a need, they hire people like myself to inspect it for safety. I happen to do this for State Farm, who does not dismiss any type of wiring out of hand, despite what your brother, aunt, cousin, and
15 neighbors told you. Could just be the area you live in??
True, but no more true for older houses than newer houses. I do renovations on 25 year old houses and often find all types of buried violations
I've told you this multiple times before--if you have difficulties in your location, it's a local/state/regional thing, _NOT_ nationwide.
Am heavily involved in revitalization effort in older part of home town and many of those houses are still K&T; we have very limited funding for these projects so there often are severe constraints on what can be accomplished. We therefore do not automatically simply rip out existing K&T but evaluate condition during the restoration and go from there. There has never been an issue of the homeowner being refused insurance even when the wiring has not been replaced.
As noted, it is still covered by Code; there's no basis for removal or denial of coverage on that basis.
You really should restrain the blanket statements.
like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....
And someone here said insurance required removal of K&T from a couple little used rooms.
perhaps theres a insurance company out there that takes on K&T perhaps for a higher cost?
K&T connections arent in boxes, K&T is designed for open air operation and shouldnt be insulated around, K&T is often OVERFUSED, putting everything at great risk, K&T has had 70 to 100 years and more to be hacked modified. K&T is just bad news and will no doubt get flagged by any home inspector.
As someone else reported here homeowners insurance checks before writing new policies..
If they didnt rates to cover excess losses would go up, making them less competive.......
I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. These are generally putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies; not always but generally. Either way, we've never had any tentative homeowner application for insurance turned down for wiring, K&T or no. In fact, the only problem one I can recall wasn't anything at all to do w/ the house but the financial history of the client.
What your local State Farm guy is telling you hasn't promulgated here, anyway, whatever he says. It may be just his way of covering his butt--"Hey, it ain't me, it's everybody!" is a good-sounding excuse to not have to listen any longer to complaints.
I've not looked specifically, perhaps the State insurance commissioner rulings trump what might otherwise be a desired corporate policy and they've decided it's not worth pulling out of the state over. Whatever is the reason for the apparent dichotomy between your situation there and here, it is not universal that K&T alone prevents either passing inspection, obtaining homeowners insurance or selling a residence for a fair market price.
Others have corroborated that side of the story as well...
You can state a local issue as you wish; I'll continue to counter that it's not national if you continue to make the generic "one size fits all".
Well home inspectors are natinwide, and if a homeowner EVER will sell their home, K&T is going to be a issue to make it far harder to sell. Plus your home is likely the greatest investment any individual will ever make.
Might as well take care of it, because someday you may want or need to sell.
and since your group is rehapping nhomes perhaps theres a prefered bprovider arrangement for insurance?
why not find out who is insuring thoose homes and post the companies name here......
I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..
A couple were in a google search. "GFCI/AFCI" was number 2 in the search. "Aluminum" was somewhere in the top 10. "Pennsylvania Department" was a link only to that document.
All yours.
Maybe you should read what you post. But then you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.
Again, I've just told you that is _NOT_ a problem; many of these have been resold at fair local market values after the initial owners have either moved up, moved away, or for other reasons...
And that has what to do with the specifics of the question????
See above...
No.
Pick a licensed company; the organization is a 501(c) that does expedite financing for the rehab but it's one of those "sweat equity" arrangement w/ the prospective purchaser and part of the process is the education they receive in learning how to and dealing with the proper procedures for applying for the mortgage, acquiring the insurance, knowing about taxes, etc., etc., etc., ...
We stand on the sideline and coach but do _NOT_ do the work; if they don't get it done, they're out (after a reasonable period and remedial education, etc., of course). There are some that for whatever reason, simply either "don't get it" or are unwilling to follow through on the commitment--and it _is_ hard work and an intense process.
We do tend to recommend folks to independent insurance agents/brokers but they're not required to do that; all they have to do is get the insurance before the mortgage company will underwrite the loan.
Any/all of the name-brand outfits can, I am quite sure, be found on the list of underwriters. I do know for a fact of several that are carried by your favorite example bogeyman as well as several others that have the word "farm" in the company name/logo.
Well, that's there situation perhaps; even if so (and will grant it may well be an issue in whatever location you are) that doesn't make it so anywhere else.
As an aside I would think there would be room for a class action lawsuit or at least action requesting relief from State insurance commissioner's office or whatever the regulatory agency is there if they can show a widespread case of refusal to underwrite on the basis of simply the existence of K&T if it has not been shown to be out of compliance w/ the appropriate NEC sections for same.
I will say this particular state of current residence has a long history of a very strong Insurance Commissioner and while not overbearing to the point of driving companies out of the state as have some excessively one-side locations, the rules are stringent enough that insurance is not generally difficult to acquire and compared to other locations where I have been, quite reasonably priced.
my best friends neighbor just had some work done their home looks much better. I went over and admired the new sidewalk and steps and rebuilt wood front porch.
I told owner how great it looked. he said it was expensive but they had no choice
the cracked broken sidewalk crumbling chipped steps and rotted porch and weak railings were spotted by their homeowners company and it was either fix or cancel. they called around no one else would insure them so they had the work done......
such is life with risk adverse insurance companies and i cant blame them, fall accidents can be very expensive.
some years ago one of my customers a public school had sidewalks that werent even, slabs had moved.
a students grandpa came to pick up his grandchild and tripped on the bad sidewalk. he broke his hip and eventually died. last i heard the lawsuit was at a million bucks and climbing.
dont know the final resolution they just said expensive.
the school district re did sidewalks and parking lots at all its buildings..... took them all summer
if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid obvious hazards?
...[typical haller litany of every accident scenario in the world]...
Of course, that's why we rehab these places. But, there's no point in spending limited resources just "for because" if there isn't a problem just for the sake of spending money.
Just lay off the "you must because" stuff that isn't true and we can "just get along"... :)
do you open all walls to inspect the K&T connections? Do you blow insulation into walls etc?
Seriously if you dont open and inspect all K&T connections how do you know each and everyone is safe and never overheated and there are NO illegal hacked connections??
Arguing with Haller is like arguing with a stump. Obviously he totally ignores everything you say, and just continues to spew unsubstantiated nonsense. My best guess is that his referenced houses with K&T were in such bad condition, the insurance companies wouldn't touch them. Not because they had K&T, but because it was in bad condition. It was probably futile for the agent to try and explain this to him, so they just gave him some story about all K&T being un-insurable.
I'll add my personal experience. Over the years I've purchased 7 homes built between 1880 and 1920. All had active K&T to some extent along with newer wiring. Not only was it no impediment to obtaining insurance, but in not a single instance was I even asked about the type of wiring. Insurance company representatives did come at look at the houses, but in some cases, only the exteriors.
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