2 knob or 3? wiring?

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On 7/4/2011 12:45 PM, EXT wrote:

also, I would add that I believe the aluminum wiring your company was concerned about is many many times more of a concern than knob and tube.
--
Steve Barker
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On 7/4/2011 2:11 PM, Steve Barker wrote:

I agree. Of my 1000+ customers, a number of them have some K&T in their houses and businesses, and I can assure you that they ALL have insurance. My local State Farm office has told me that the company policy is to assess the condition of whatever type of wiring is in the building. Aluminum single conductor wiring from the early 70's is known to have caused fires, primarily in areas with high salt air, such as the Jersey shore. Even that type of wiring is acceptable when properly terminated.
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homeowners often have insurance with a single company fore however long they own their home.
these rules only apply to new customers
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Anyone who doubts my statement just call state farm. They will flat out NOT sell a new policy to any NEW customer with K&T./
Its not just the K&T but the lack of sufficent outlets etc......
these days a new homeowners policy gets a home inspection by a insurance company representive or at minimum the agent drives by and takes photos of ther new perspective customers home.
they dont want to voluntarily insure homes at risk.
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Anyone who doubts my statement just call state farm. They will flat out NOT sell a new policy to any NEW customer with K&T./
Its not just the K&T but the lack of sufficent outlets etc......
these days a new homeowners policy gets a home inspection by a insurance company representive or at minimum the agent drives by and takes photos of ther new perspective customers home.
they dont want to voluntarily insure homes at risk.
------------------------------------
My insurance company in 2009 during my application asked very specific questions about the electrical but it was all done on the phone. Of course they let it be know that any false information renders my policy void.
My mortgage company on the other hand sent an inspector out to inspect my home and he had the authoty on behalf of the mortgage company to make sure my house was a safe.
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Again, another incident of this lie. Insurance companies don't know or care about the wiring.
---------------------------------------
My insurance company in 2009 when I purchased my home wanted to know information about my wiring and fuse box and asked me direct questions during my application. Basically they wanted to know if the fuse box was 50 years old or older and they asked me about my copper wiring and asked me if I was sure there was no aluminum wiring in the house.
They asked me if my fuse box had been inspected by ESA ( an electrical inspectoral authority in Ontario).
I met all their criteria and they have no concerns about my wiring, but the fact is they DID ask me about my wiring during my application.
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On 7/4/2011 2:37 PM, bob haller wrote:

haller has an Ouija board and he knows.

haller took psychology 3 and he knows.

haller is fond of FUD.

How does anyone find the "creative" wiring added to any system?
How about old non-ground romex buried in insulation. The wires are next to each other in case of a problem. K&T they are separated. And the wire insulation is not adequate for insulation burial.

The code change was not based on data. The chief electrical inspector in Minneapolis, which has lots of K&T in insulation, said he had not seen a problem. Haler posted a link from an agency in his own state that installs insulation around K&T
State code for insulation around K&T varies. Like in his own state.

As people have made clear in the past, insurance companies may or may not care.
In one challenge to insurance denial the insurance company was reversed by the state insurance regulator because the insurance company provided no actuarial basis for the denial.

How old are you? Have you watched Soylent Green?
K&T is still in the NEC.
I would give a definitive answer, but my Ouija board broke just last week. When my board is down I listen to RBM.
--
bud--


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On 7/5/2011 4:33 PM, bud-- wrote:

OMG, every time this gets rewound it's good for a laugh. Sadly, in as much as I try to state facts as I know them, I always feel like I'm picking on Rainman
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Bud your whipping a dead horse.
Home buyers TODAY are very picky. now add shows like holmes inspection which clearly calls K&T a fire hazard....Between shows iike this the home flip shows that rountinely remove all K&T, the insurance companies that dont like K&T, he frequent lack of enough and 3 prong outlets, let alone GFCI and arc fault protection.
defenders of K&T have lost....
they are beating a dead horse.....
hey I dont care, too each his own.
but I pride myself in giving the best advice here I can. and stand by replace K&T at every opportunity.
just like fuse boxes they are both obsolete
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On 7/6/2011 10:45 PM, bob haller wrote: ...

...
I've told you this multiple times before--if you have difficulties in your location, it's a local/state/regional thing, _NOT_ nationwide.
Am heavily involved in revitalization effort in older part of home town and many of those houses are still K&T; we have very limited funding for these projects so there often are severe constraints on what can be accomplished. We therefore do not automatically simply rip out existing K&T but evaluate condition during the restoration and go from there. There has never been an issue of the homeowner being refused insurance even when the wiring has not been replaced.
As noted, it is still covered by Code; there's no basis for removal or denial of coverage on that basis.
You really should restrain the blanket statements.
--
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like I said ask your local insurance company. My state farm agent says the prohibition on NEW homeowners policies with K&T is nationwide....
And someone here said insurance required removal of K&T from a couple little used rooms.
perhaps theres a insurance company out there that takes on K&T perhaps for a higher cost?
K&T connections arent in boxes, K&T is designed for open air operation and shouldnt be insulated around, K&T is often OVERFUSED, putting everything at great risk, K&T has had 70 to 100 years and more to be hacked modified. K&T is just bad news and will no doubt get flagged by any home inspector.
As someone else reported here homeowners insurance checks before writing new policies..
If they didnt rates to cover excess losses would go up, making them less competive.......
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On 7/7/2011 9:26 AM, bob haller wrote: ...

...
I just finished telling you the local group is doing rehab's continuously and it is _NOT_ a problem here. These are generally putting first-time homeowners into these so those _are_ _NEW_ policies; not always but generally. Either way, we've never had any tentative homeowner application for insurance turned down for wiring, K&T or no. In fact, the only problem one I can recall wasn't anything at all to do w/ the house but the financial history of the client.
What your local State Farm guy is telling you hasn't promulgated here, anyway, whatever he says. It may be just his way of covering his butt--"Hey, it ain't me, it's everybody!" is a good-sounding excuse to not have to listen any longer to complaints.
I've not looked specifically, perhaps the State insurance commissioner rulings trump what might otherwise be a desired corporate policy and they've decided it's not worth pulling out of the state over. Whatever is the reason for the apparent dichotomy between your situation there and here, it is not universal that K&T alone prevents either passing inspection, obtaining homeowners insurance or selling a residence for a fair market price.
Others have corroborated that side of the story as well...
You can state a local issue as you wish; I'll continue to counter that it's not national if you continue to make the generic "one size fits all".
--
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Well home inspectors are natinwide, and if a homeowner EVER will sell their home, K&T is going to be a issue to make it far harder to sell. Plus your home is likely the greatest investment any individual will ever make.
Might as well take care of it, because someday you may want or need to sell.
and since your group is rehapping nhomes perhaps theres a prefered bprovider arrangement for insurance?
why not find out who is insuring thoose homes and post the companies name here......
I have friends with K&T and they are locked in their current homeowners insurance company because no one else will insure them..
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On 7/7/2011 10:05 AM, bob haller wrote:

I call bullshit on this. Just plain and simple bullshit.
--
Steve Barker
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On 7/7/2011 10:05 AM, bob haller wrote:

...
Again, I've just told you that is _NOT_ a problem; many of these have been resold at fair local market values after the initial owners have either moved up, moved away, or for other reasons...

And that has what to do with the specifics of the question????

See above...

No.
Pick a licensed company; the organization is a 501(c) that does expedite financing for the rehab but it's one of those "sweat equity" arrangement w/ the prospective purchaser and part of the process is the education they receive in learning how to and dealing with the proper procedures for applying for the mortgage, acquiring the insurance, knowing about taxes, etc., etc., etc., ...
We stand on the sideline and coach but do _NOT_ do the work; if they don't get it done, they're out (after a reasonable period and remedial education, etc., of course). There are some that for whatever reason, simply either "don't get it" or are unwilling to follow through on the commitment--and it _is_ hard work and an intense process.
We do tend to recommend folks to independent insurance agents/brokers but they're not required to do that; all they have to do is get the insurance before the mortgage company will underwrite the loan.
Any/all of the name-brand outfits can, I am quite sure, be found on the list of underwriters. I do know for a fact of several that are carried by your favorite example bogeyman as well as several others that have the word "farm" in the company name/logo.

Well, that's there situation perhaps; even if so (and will grant it may well be an issue in whatever location you are) that doesn't make it so anywhere else.
As an aside I would think there would be room for a class action lawsuit or at least action requesting relief from State insurance commissioner's office or whatever the regulatory agency is there if they can show a widespread case of refusal to underwrite on the basis of simply the existence of K&T if it has not been shown to be out of compliance w/ the appropriate NEC sections for same.
I will say this particular state of current residence has a long history of a very strong Insurance Commissioner and while not overbearing to the point of driving companies out of the state as have some excessively one-side locations, the rules are stringent enough that insurance is not generally difficult to acquire and compared to other locations where I have been, quite reasonably priced.
--
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.net> wrote:

my best friends neighbor just had some work done their home looks much better. I went over and admired the new sidewalk and steps and rebuilt wood front porch.
I told owner how great it looked. he said it was expensive but they had no choice
the cracked broken sidewalk crumbling chipped steps and rotted porch and weak railings were spotted by their homeowners company and it was either fix or cancel. they called around no one else would insure them so they had the work done......
such is life with risk adverse insurance companies and i cant blame them, fall accidents can be very expensive.
some years ago one of my customers a public school had sidewalks that werent even, slabs had moved.
a students grandpa came to pick up his grandchild and tripped on the bad sidewalk. he broke his hip and eventually died. last i heard the lawsuit was at a million bucks and climbing.
dont know the final resolution they just said expensive.
the school district re did sidewalks and parking lots at all its buildings..... took them all summer
if you made money by people being safe wouldnt you try to avoid obvious hazards?
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On 7/7/2011 2:47 PM, bob haller wrote: ...
...[typical haller litany of every accident scenario in the world]...

Of course, that's why we rehab these places. But, there's no point in spending limited resources just "for because" if there isn't a problem just for the sake of spending money.
Just lay off the "you must because" stuff that isn't true and we can "just get along"... :)
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do you open all walls to inspect the K&T connections? Do you blow insulation into walls etc?
Seriously if you dont open and inspect all K&T connections how do you know each and everyone is safe and never overheated and there are NO illegal hacked connections??
inquiring minds want to know.
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On 7/7/2011 5:27 PM, bob haller wrote: ...

...
Same way as would do for conventional wiring...
--
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On 7/7/2011 4:57 PM, dpb wrote:

Arguing with Haller is like arguing with a stump. Obviously he totally ignores everything you say, and just continues to spew unsubstantiated nonsense. My best guess is that his referenced houses with K&T were in such bad condition, the insurance companies wouldn't touch them. Not because they had K&T, but because it was in bad condition. It was probably futile for the agent to try and explain this to him, so they just gave him some story about all K&T being un-insurable.
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