1920's wiring....

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wrote:

"Delta" breakers are really only telling you they have higher line to ground ratings. The normal breaker you see in 120/240 is really only rated 120v nominal to ground. In a delta you always have at least one leg above 200v to ground. In corner delta you have 2 at 240v above ground. The place you are likely to see corner delta is in a sewer lift station where the only load is the pump and a control panel that runs l/l at 240v. That will usually be open delta too. The panel will look like a single pole (2 hots and a grounded leg) unit but the tip off is 240v to ground and 3 p loads. That is really the one you have to look for "delta" breakers in. All 3p breakers I have ever seen are rated that way. Although a corner delta panel looks exactly like a 120/240 panel, it still needs to be listed for delta (higher voltage). I suspect it may only be the label ;-)
An example would be to compare a QO230H "delta" breaker $200 with a QO230 120/240 breaker (the one on your water heater) $67
That is list price, you will beat that by up to 60% on the regular breaker but you might not on the delta breaker.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Interesting.
A few posts back I mentioned a "delta breaker" then you mentioned "delta rated breakers". My last post confused the distinction. I looked in the SquareD catalog and your delta ratings are easy to find. They are supposed to have a catalog for corner grounded delta but I haven't searched for it yet. Should reinforce the info you provided above.
I looked in an my old electrician's handbook and it shows a "delta breaker" as a 3-phase breaker except it only has 2 bus connections. The third connection comes out to an additional lug. In use, you have high leg delta service entrance wires but a single phase panel. The delta breaker plugs into the panel and picks up the 120V legs. The service high leg connects directly to the additional lug on the breaker. The only 3-phase available is on the load side of the delta breaker - to equipment or a subpanel. Everything else in the service panel is single phase. I suspect they were used to add some 3-phase load to a single phase panel - you just add 3-phase service wires and meter to the existing single phase panel. To be safe you also add a 3-phase common trip circuit breaker as a separate service disconnect. They could also be used as one of the service disconnects in a split bus panel.
I looked on google (Holt) and delta breakers have not been allowed in panelboards since 1978 (408.36). I sure have never seen one. But I remembered seeing them in the NEC which is why I was interested.
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wrote:

Perhaps it is really just confusion about the term "delta breaker". I prefer to just talk about the voltage rating, because that is the distinction. If you look up that QO230H you will see it is referenced to as going on corner delta systems. The SqD site is pretty informative and the "breaker selector" will get you to the right breaker fairly easily.
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On 10/26/2009 12:47 PM Existential Angst spake thus:

I don't think this is true if a proper wire-nutted connection is made: the threads of the nut should bite into the wires, and with enough of a twist inside the nut, there's a plenty large enough contact area.
Soldered connections are, of course, better (assuming they're properly made), but this isn't something I envision us going back to. (Although who know, after the Apocalypse and a return to primitivism ...)

Well, while I don't necessarily want to fan the embers of the back-stabbing argument, I think the consensus of opinion is that wire nut connections are far superior to backstabbed ones.
--
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On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:42:27 -0800, David Nebenzahl

Not to mention we'd have to use lead-free solder today if we were soldering joints - and that is a REAL PITA.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Why? I thought the lead free scam was only on plumbing.
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Mercury makes mad hatters. Maybe lead solder makes buttcrack plumbers?
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wrote:

Many European countries have gone to lead free solder in their electronics. Give the electronics a few years and they grow what is called tin whiskers. This shorts out the circuits. You have to use the lead free solder to do a good repair on them.
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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:08:37 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

using lead free solder??? In my experience, no. Using leaded solder to "patch" them is easier than using lead-free - and likely to last longer than a lead-free "repair"
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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:50:31 -0500, Steve Barker

Nope - it's invaded electronics too - Most computers, TVs etc in the last 5 years are lead free - and a royal P.I.T.A. to repair because of it
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

who repairs electronics? LOL!
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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:18:09 -0500, Steve Barker

I still do, when parts are available. Getting hard to buy non surface mount components as simple as capacitors though.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I'm glad I have my roll of Kestor five core solder. That particular roll I bought back in the 70's and it always works on anything electronic.
TDD
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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:38:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas

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A pediatrician I know (doctor for children) tells me that lead poisoning in kids is still a very real problem. Lead free paint and plumbing is a very real advantage.
I figure that circuit boards are not likely to be eaten, or much exposure to people. As such, that's plenty safe for my life.
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wrote:

It's funny, we started with copper, went to tinned copper, went back to copper, slid further back to effing aluminum (goodgawd), learned from that mistake and went back to copper again. Altho power companies use aluminum in parts of their service -- and steel!
Also, there are different grades of copper, wire supposedly being "electrical grade", which is among the higher grades, iiuc. Electrical grade copper commands a substantially higher scrap value than copper pipe, altho I don't know how a dealer would tell, if it were copper bar.
I wouldn't be surprised if wire is now a crappy grade of copper. Proly could tell by comparing the resistance of an old 500 ft spool to a new one -- if one could find an old spool.
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Existential Angst wrote:

As several people have said, steel is not used as a conductor.
Aluminum is rather widely used inside buildings for larger sized wire. It is very common to use aluminum wire for the service wires from the utility connection to the meter to the service panel. The problems were with 15 and 20A branch circuits. Aluminum can still be used for them too, but not likely any time soon.
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Yeah, I just looked -- that guy wire I thought was steel indeed appears to be alum!
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> Aluminum is rather widely used inside buildings for larger sized wire. It
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Existential Angst wrote:

ACSR - aluminum cable steel reinforced. The neutral is bare aluminum with one of the strands steel to support the drop. I think someone else said about the same thing.
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wrote:

Most domestic service drops I have seen are just AAC, no steel core.
Phelps Dodge has a pretty good web site talking about the various service drop cables.
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