15 vs 20 amp circuits

And you wouldn't need to, if the circuit was installed in compliance with the NEC -- which *requires* a double-pole breaker if both legs are connected to the same device.

Reply to
Doug Miller
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But ramps are DEADLY for the able-bodies with freezing rain and other such icy crap we get up here.

Reply to
clare at snyder.on.ca

Are you saying that you don't have *any* low-power circuits that won't ever be changed?

You shouldn't even need to do the experiment to know that the same reason 14 is easier to handle makes it easier to break.

2000 sq.ft, with an equal-sized attached shop. Everything on one level. Lots of lighting circuits, all one light per circuit. Highest-draw lighting fixtures are several rarely-used double floodlights around the perimeter, 150W each.

Two centrally-located panels.

It's easy to use a lot of wire in a new home, especially if you're fond of home runs. I'm a fan of doing things that are useful and make sense. Using #12 on low-power circuits isn't worth wasting money on, particularly if it's borrowed money. It may seem like a small thing, but by the time most people have paid off their home loan, they'll have worked at least an extra week to pay for that wasted copper. Anybody who can't think of something better to do with that week or the income, should seek suggestions on Usenet. :-)

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjkREMOVE

How do u tell if u have 15a outlets and/or breakers. Can u use a multimeter to determine amperage?

Reply to
bigjcw1023

They're required to be dedicated circuits here (DW officially, disposal "usually"), and you can't share kitchen counter outlets with anything else regardless.

The older "split receptacle" requirement was that you could put at most two split duplex receptacles on a dual breaker, you couldn't put the two split receptacles adjacent to each other on a counter, and every kitchen had to have at least two splits. Eg: on a short counter requiring two receptacles, they had to be different dual circuits. I assume they're doing the same thing with the new single 20A/GFCI version.

That's what "hexes" are for ;-) [6-way receptacle blocks that plug into a receptacle.]

They have the advantage of not being there if you don't need 'em. Most (all?) are even compatible with split duplex receptacles -> meaning three outlets each on two circuits.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to :

I'm going to suggest a slight rephrase:

220 SHOULD be no surprise if you have both a red and black wire.

If it is a surprise, you have no business futzing with wiring.

[In realith, 220 shouldn't be a surprise even if you only have a black and white wire. Think 220-only circuits. Like electric baseboards and perfectly legal practise of using ordinary wire, rather than the somewhat less common black+red+ground/no white wire.]
Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to :

The breaker has the amperage stamped on it (usually the handle). The breaker amps should NEVER (at least in most residential circumstances) exceed the rating of the wire.

Wire usually has the wire size stamped on it, if it doesn't, you can tell whether the conductors are 14ga (15A) or 12ga (20A) simply by comparing it to a known piece of wire.

There's three kinds of outlets you might encounter:

1 The 20A kind you can't plug a 15A plug into (one blade is turned 90 degrees), and only accepts 20A plugs. 2 A different 20A kind has a "t-slot", which will accept both 20A and 15A plugs. 3 Ordinary 15A outlets (that won't accept a "true" 20A plug). These outlets are actually rated for 20A - you can draw a total of 20A from the receptacle (if the breaker will allow it), but no more than 15A from either outlet. Which means you can install these on 20A circuits, but the devices you plug into it are limited to 15A plugs. [In other words, all permissible to connect on a 20A circuit.]

In the US, where 20A general purpose receptacle circuits are legal, most are wired with outlet (3) only. 20A plug devices are rare. In those rare cases where it's likely that a true 20A device is required, you use a T-slot receptacle (2). You won't see (1) on general purpose circuits - they're primarily for dedicated 20A appliances.

In Canada, until quite recently, general purpose 20A circuits were essentially illegal, because (2) simply were never approved for sale. The only 20A/120V circuits you see were for dedicated equipment, usually direct-wire. As such, 120V/20A outlets (1) are extremely rarely used. I've never seen one in residential wiring, only in workshops and industrial situations for power tools.

I don't think I've ever seen a T-slot outlet in use in Canada, except for a couple archeological finds that predate plugs with ground pins. This'll change with the latest amendments to the CEC.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to :

Ectually, I'd consider putting two dozen single low-moderate wattage fixtures on individual dedicated/homerunned 15A circuits to be a vastly greater waste of money than picking 12ga over 14ga, but perhaps that's just me.

You probably could have put all of the fixtures on a handful of daisy-chained 15A circuits or even 12ga/20A circuits and saved a heck of a lot more than picking 14ga over 12ga.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

CF:

Hmm...lemme check my work.

One 14/3 in - 3 allowances One 14/3 out - 3 allowances All grounds in box - 1 allowance One device - 2 allowances Internal cable clamps - 1 allowance

Total 10 x 2.00 cu in for 14 AWG = 20 cu in.

Or 18 if using something without internal clamps, like nonmetallic single gang new-work boxes. I tend to use 3 1/2" deep metal boxes on old work, with internal clamps, though if I have a really DEEP wall (such as a baseboard outlet over lath&plaster over /internal/ board sheathing over full 2 x 4 studs) I may use external clamps threaded into the box back. I find external clamps to be otherwise unwieldy in old work, and plastic boxes to do a poorer job than metal at clamping to lath & plaster, so I tend to favor schemes that keep the volume

Reply to
pawlowsk002

Ah...I think this is a CEC vs NEC difference. For us in Canada each #14 insulated conductor counts as 1.5 cu in, the device counts as two insulated conductors. Pigtails, bare grounds, and cable clamps don't count, but we have to count the number of insulated twist caps separately.

With one device, 6 insulated conductors and 4 insulated caps (one for the ground) we're allowed to use a 15 cu in box.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Friesen

I just got back from Home Depot with 100ft 10/3, a sub breaker panel w/ breakers installed, 240/30a wall outlet. $255. Copper has indeed gotten expensive. I cant imagine the bill if I also had to tack on labor from a professional.

Duane C. Johns> Hi mdb;

Reply to
Kaz

A pro would have worked faster than you, but he'd be charging $75 an hour or so.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Hi, It all depends. If you have long run of wires, 12 gauge will help minimizing voltage drop and also you can put little hevier load on it. Other than that, it's your call. It's your house, it's your work. I have some 20A circuits for long run with more often used outlets. Others are all 15A circuits. But on 220V application, I even use 6 gauge wires down to 12 gauge.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

And someone else would be accountable for any errors made during installation. That's a biggee these days; at least in the Litigious States of America.....

Reply to
Jim

Yes it is. When I moved in this apartment I found an outlet that had a jumper wire from the neutral terminal to the ground terminal to make it look like it was grounded to one of those little testers with the three lights. The problem was that the circuit was also reverse polarity so the ground slot was "hot".

Reply to
Daniel Who Wants to Know

Tony Hwang posted for all of us...

Who cares hung low?

Reply to
Tekkie®

My understanding is that Canada requires GFCI protection only within

1m of a sink, and that all other kitchen outlets can be non-GFCI, either the traditional splits (in 15 or 20A) or 20A t-slot non- splits...that's based on the latest P.S.Knight book. Am I reading that wrong?

Chip C Toronto

Reply to
Chip C

According to Chip C :

I'd have to double check. But considering the speed in which the US NEC went from a similar rule to "all counter outlets", I wouldn't expect it to stay that way long here.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

Wow. Talk about making a bad situation worse...

A place I used to live in had a once-unfinished basement turned into a somewhat-finished one, obviously by one of the previous owners. About half of the outlets had hot and neutral reversed, so the people who did the work apparently didn't know what the silver and brass screws on the outlets were trying to tell them. But at least they got the grounds right.

Dave

Reply to
Dave Martindale

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