110v line to 220v line?

[Doug Miller]

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical advice.

[Steve Scott]

[ameijers]

I'll second what Doug said. I make no claims to be an electrician, and know just enough to be dangerous. But in any wiring or other repair, I don't go by what will 'be safe for me, because I know how it is set up.' I go by what will be safe for any guests, or for the next owner of the place. A wiring setup can easily be in place for 50+ years or more. Are gonna be around that long, to make sure everyone knows about your 'good enough' shortcut? Spend the few extra bucks, wire it to code or better, and never have to worry about it again. If nothing else, when it comes time for you or your heirs to sell, the buyer's inspector will likely catch it anyway, and you'll have to pay more to redo the work at that point.

aem sends...

[Tom Horne, Electrician]

The breakers only need fixing if the circuit supplies loads that are not line to neutral or if the circuit supplies both ungrounded conductors to devices mounted on the same yoke or strap. A qualified person is supposed to know that three and four wire circuits must be supplied from different voltages or phases. Any person who does not understand multi wire branch circuits has absolutely no business removing the cover from a panel cabinet.

[Cooltemp Industries]

What about those adapters that convert the 220 for an electric stove into 110 for the electrical side of a gas stove (lights, timer, clock, ignitor, etc...? Aren't they using the ground in that way?

[Mark Lloyd]

Something still needs to be fixed. There is no way to tell from looking at the panel, that different phases are required.

As I said in another pose, it shouldn't be too hard to rewire an outlet, eliminating the (shared neutral) situation. I'll do that.

[WConner]

?However it is my experience that those who believe it to be overkill just don't understand why it was written the way it is.?

I have a strong suspicion that a considerable amount of it was for ?Turf Protection? for Electrical Contractors and Union Installers.

There are several things I did not mention in the previous post about ?This is enough to show that you should not attempt this installation yourself?. One of the new houses I wired from scratch happened to be one of the very first in our area to have a fully grounded system. The ?Professional? electricians were not yet installing fully grounded systems. Where would I get the idea to do such a thing? From my Handy-Dandy Sears ?Home Wiring Simplified?, or some such title, hand book.

Also for those who reacted so hysterically about ?ungrounded? neutral wire, in this molded plastic wire, typical of much or most today, that particular wire is actually as well insulated as the conductors, it just does not have a separate sleeve with the sleeved conductors then having thinner body insulation. Might want to check the construction of 6 Ga. and larger wire of not too long ago, what comprised the Neutral. Never heard of any problem with it.

By the way, does everyone here feel it is necessary to post complete messages that are being responded too?

Walt Conner

[Joseph Meehan]

You can suspect what you want, but from my experience, every rule, including those that on first look sound suspicious have very good sound safety and electrical reasons for being there. I repeat my opinion that ignoring any part of the code is foolish.

[Stormin Mormon]

That's a fascinating approach. I can see that working. Didn't even think of that -- effectively making a 220 volt space heater / hair dryer. Neat technique!

[gfretwell]

The code does allow a 3 wire feeder to s second building with no other parallel metalic paths so the real issue is whether the grounded conductor is insulated or not. I agree it is not code compliant. I also have a hard time identifying the hazard definitively.

[Doug Miller]

The National Electrical Code is published by the National Fire Protection Association. That should tell you something about the motives of its authors.

[Doug Miller]

Ummm.... no.

It's clear you still don't understand. As I suggested before, Google on "Edison circuit" and learn something new.

[Joseph Meehan]

If that third wire is the un-insulated "ground" wire and if it is used as a neutral (not the same as a ground) it is a current carrying wire. You will have a situation where that un-insulated wire can be HOT. Maybe you might recognize this fact, but would someone else who might want to change some wiring in the garage know what was done???

The code is there for a reason, a very good reason. Ignoring it because the danger is not understood, is foolish and dangerous.

[AZ Nomad]

neutral != ground.

There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral may present a fire hazard.

[WConner]

Who published the Code has nothing what-so-ever to do with who lobbied to have certain "Turf Protection" included.

Now for all you people who are running around frantically waving your CODE books, I am sure the next time you step into your car or truck and head down the highway, you will remember there is a code involved here also. Part of this code is posted on signs along the way and read - SPEED LIMIT 20, 35,

50, 55. etc, MPH. If you are running 56 MPH in 55 zone, you are breaking the code. Ignoring the code may lead to arrest, personal injury or death. To quote someone here - "The code is there for a reason, a very good reason. Ignoring it because the danger is not understood, is foolish and dangerous" anyone recognize this?

Walt Conner

Over and Out

[gfretwell]

A fire hazard, let's not get silly here. 250.32 DOES allow a 3 wire feed to a remote building. That is a fact. The issue is whether it is insulated or not. Bear in mind it is connected to grounding electrodes at BOTH ends along with the equipment grounding system at the far end..

I will not say it is legal but I also can't put my finger on the hazard.

[gfretwell]

This is really getting silly now.

[Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT]

[e-mail] wrote:

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30. In other words I am a volunteer firefighter / rescuer. I have run a rescue call for an electrocution caused by an open neutral in a three wire feeder to a detached garage. The victim was found by his wife when he failed to come in for supper. He had a three wire drill in his hand, he had been working in hot weather and was sweating, he was kneeling on a concrete floor, there were no drilled holes in the piece of stock that was set up for drilling. The slab on grade concrete floor was a better path to ground then the driven rod electrode at the garages building disconnecting means. The investigator from the state department of industrial safety, that the fire department called on to help determine the cause of the death, concluded that a failure of a neutral termination had raised the entire garage's grounding system to 120 volts above ground. The victim had marked and set up the stock for drilling, laid out the drill, plugged it in, knelt down and picked up the drill and immediately suffered a fatal shock. A four pole fall of potential ground resistance test of the garage's driven rod electrode measured 78 ohms to earth. Several things could have been done to avoid that death. One of those things would have been the use of a four wire feeder so that it would have taken two or more failures to energize the garages grounding system.

It is also true that if the garage floor had been reinforced and the reinforcing steel had been used for grounding the floor would not have been at a different voltage then the garages grounding system but I have yet to encounter an existing garage were the reinforcing steel was used as an electrode. With the adoption of the 2005 version of the NEC that will become more common. As normally found detached garages with concrete floors, three wire feeders, and driven rod electrodes if any are only one wiring failure from dangerous.

When a four wire feeder is used it takes two or three failures to energize the building's grounding system above earth potential. First the neutral has to fail open. Second there must be a ground fault on the neutral. Third the Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor of the feeder has to be open. I'll take the three failure possibility over the single failure possibility on my best day.

[AZ Nomad]

Really? If there's a fatality and it comes to light that you did electrical work without pulling a permit, nobody is going to care?

[gfretwell]

You might get sued but you are not going to jail unless they determine you intentionally tried to kill someone. Even the guy in Miami who wired 120v to a window grate to kill burglars avioded all criminal charges when he killed one.