110v line to 220v line?

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

It is dangerous I fear you also subscribe to the idea that if you don't understand they they wrote the code that way, you can ignore it.
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Joseph Meehan

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On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:34:46 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"

The code does allow a 3 wire feeder to s second building with no other parallel metalic paths so the real issue is whether the grounded conductor is insulated or not. I agree it is not code compliant. I also have a hard time identifying the hazard definitively.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

If that third wire is the un-insulated "ground" wire and if it is used as a neutral (not the same as a ground) it is a current carrying wire. You will have a situation where that un-insulated wire can be HOT. Maybe you might recognize this fact, but would someone else who might want to change some wiring in the garage know what was done???
The code is there for a reason, a very good reason. Ignoring it because the danger is not understood, is foolish and dangerous.
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neutral != ground.
There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral may present a fire hazard.
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wrote:

A fire hazard, let's not get silly here. 250.32 DOES allow a 3 wire feed to a remote building. That is a fact. The issue is whether it is insulated or not. Bear in mind it is connected to grounding electrodes at BOTH ends along with the equipment grounding system at the far end..
I will not say it is legal but I also can't put my finger on the hazard.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30. In other words I am a volunteer firefighter / rescuer. I have run a rescue call for an electrocution caused by an open neutral in a three wire feeder to a detached garage. The victim was found by his wife when he failed to come in for supper. He had a three wire drill in his hand, he had been working in hot weather and was sweating, he was kneeling on a concrete floor, there were no drilled holes in the piece of stock that was set up for drilling. The slab on grade concrete floor was a better path to ground then the driven rod electrode at the garages building disconnecting means. The investigator from the state department of industrial safety, that the fire department called on to help determine the cause of the death, concluded that a failure of a neutral termination had raised the entire garage's grounding system to 120 volts above ground. The victim had marked and set up the stock for drilling, laid out the drill, plugged it in, knelt down and picked up the drill and immediately suffered a fatal shock. A four pole fall of potential ground resistance test of the garage's driven rod electrode measured 78 ohms to earth. Several things could have been done to avoid that death. One of those things would have been the use of a four wire feeder so that it would have taken two or more failures to energize the garages grounding system.
It is also true that if the garage floor had been reinforced and the reinforcing steel had been used for grounding the floor would not have been at a different voltage then the garages grounding system but I have yet to encounter an existing garage were the reinforcing steel was used as an electrode. With the adoption of the 2005 version of the NEC that will become more common. As normally found detached garages with concrete floors, three wire feeders, and driven rod electrodes if any are only one wiring failure from dangerous.
When a four wire feeder is used it takes two or three failures to energize the building's grounding system above earth potential. First the neutral has to fail open. Second there must be a ground fault on the neutral. Third the Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor of the feeder has to be open. I'll take the three failure possibility over the single failure possibility on my best day.
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"

Then you know about the NEC proposal process. If you want to make 3 wire feeders illegal, write a proposal, see what they say.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

What led you to the conclusion that I "want to make 3 wire feeders illegal?"
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The Tom Horne wrote:
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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>>Tom Horne

Because that\'s Greg. :-)
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"

Sorry Tom, I was just responding to this
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Go look at the NEC. You can certainly wire your home any way you choose.
BTW, are you a licensed electrician or a HO?
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:56:35 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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Of course, you may wind up burning it down, too....
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Exactly right. Or electrocuting an innocent bystander.
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 14:43:08 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

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> wrote: > >
Article 100 Definitions. Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.
It is a little like running one twelve volt bulb and two six volt bulbs from two six volt batteries connected in series. I can ground the common point of the two batteries to make the example even more representative. If I want to run a six volt load I connect it across only one battery by applying it between the outer end and common point of either battery. If I want to run a twelve volt load I connect it to the outer ends of both batteries. For this arrangement to work the batteries must be connected in series with one batteries negative connected to the other batteries positive. If the two batteries are connected with both positive poles or both negative poles together than the voltage across the non common ends of the two batteries is zero.
The original Edison circuits had DC on them but instead of batteries they had two DC generators running in series with their common point grounded. Originally used to reduce voltage drop in distribution Edison circuits continue to be used today as a labor and materials conservation technique. DC batteries arranged in Edison arrays are still used to supply single phase emergency lighting panels in older buildings. When the power fails the contactor supplying AC 208/120 single phase power to those panels drops out and connects the three conductors of the single phase feeder to 120 two volt wet cells connected in series and grounded at the common point between batteries sixty and sixty one. That leaves 120 volts between each ungrounded conductor and the neutral and 240 volts between the two ungrounded conductors.
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Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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Steve Scott wrote:

What about those adapters that convert the 220 for an electric stove into 110 for the electrical side of a gas stove (lights, timer, clock, ignitor, etc...? Aren't they using the ground in that way?
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using a transformer for the 110 would be safer but cost more what's you life worth
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On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"

That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting them on the same phase and making it 29A?

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Mark Lloyd wrote:

Any feeder or branch circuit that supplies loads that are connected to two or three ungrounded conductors must be protected by common trip breakers or breakers equipped with listed handle ties. To disarrange the circuit you would have to move at least one of the conductors to a different breaker rather than just moving the breaker and that isn't very likely.
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Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:22:33 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"

I guess you figured out that last word was supposed to be "putting". Spelling checkers can do bad stuff like that.

That's what I wanted to know. I have a shared neutral circuit in my house that's working OK now (different phases). I need to fix the breakers.
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Mark Lloyd wrote:

The breakers only need fixing if the circuit supplies loads that are not line to neutral or if the circuit supplies both ungrounded conductors to devices mounted on the same yoke or strap. A qualified person is supposed to know that three and four wire circuits must be supplied from different voltages or phases. Any person who does not understand multi wire branch circuits has absolutely no business removing the cover from a panel cabinet.
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Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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