Lawn question

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I'm new here, but from the group name, it seems to be the place for this.
We recently bought a home in rural Southern Utah. Zone 10. It is basically sand dunes on top of lava caps and caliche.
Our back yard is a rolling sand dune. We got the irrigation water system working this past summer, and what a mistake! I now have lots and lots of cockleburs. Little spiky spheres about 1/4" in diameter. I went out and sprayed Roundup on them and the other weeds and grasses I wanted to kill, but it only killed about half of them. I took a large propane weed burner to the rest of them. Some burned down, but some still have green centers that lived.
I have since removed all Rain Bird Maxi Paw sprinklers. I have sprayed with Roundup, and got the big concentrate bottle so I can spray more during this winter. At the end, I will burn it again, and have my BIL come in with his tractor rototiller to turn it over so I can rake out the roots. Maybe some of the eight billion cockleburs will bury in the soil and not germinate due to the Roundup.
Is this the logical approach? Suggestions which would be easier or better.
When finished, we'll coutour the yard, place retaining wall, reinstall the sprinklers, and start from scratch. I just don't want a lot of weeds sprouting through the new grass.
It's probably going to be constant war trying to keep the windblown seeds and bird borne seeds from getting hold in the new grass.
Steve
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that'll take care of your weed problem
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SteveB said:
[...]

No. Glyphosate kills by contact *only*. It has no residual herbicidal properties, or pre-emergent properties, whatsoever.
And, churning up the ground with a tiller will probably just bring more seeds to the surface, where they can germinate. "Cockleburr" is a common name, usually describing Xanthium spinosum L. It's an annual, so 'raking out the roots' would be a waste of time.
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Also, Roundup has to be applied at higher concentrations to kill tough weeds. 2% will kill the easy ones, 6% is much more effective. And it may take 2 applications in some cases. It will kill the whole plant, so no need to dig out roots of anything.
If you're trying to establish a lawn in a sand dune, you're going to need topsoil to either mix in or cover the sand. If you cover it with topsoil, that should keep most of the weed seeds from sprouting. I guess the real question here is if a traditional lawn is what you really want for that type of environment, or if you'r better of landscaping with plants that are suited to what's already there.
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'SteveB[_2_ Wrote:

Before Considering using chemical weed killers, try some organi techiques to control your weeds, manual weeding, put more grass down s the weeds cant survive, really go all out on them! Remember your garde is alive, weed killer is a chemical i dont always believe its the onl solution
-- Alan Hamlyn
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On Nov 1, 9:54 am, Alan Hamlyn <Alan.Hamlyn.

Roundup works in a week with minimal labor. Pulling weeds by hand, in any sizable area is backbreaking work and doesn't work with weeds that have root systems that just spring back. And trying to grow grass in an area over run by weeds without first getting rid of them is a costly, labor intensive, time consuming, water wasting proposition, destined to fail. If you kill the weeds first, then seed, it's a one time sure deal. How much pulling, repeat seeding, watering, and screwing around is it reasonable to do to avoid one application of Roundup?
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please, follow the directions carefully
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im not pushing this but found it interesting --------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1 quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not quite as well) 5 tablespoons vinegar 6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt) 1 teaspoon lemon juice 2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent to make a gallon multiply by 4 ______________________________________________ Explanations Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses the results are usually obvious in a very short time. As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated. Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides) These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D, Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by chemists, but are banned in organic gardening. As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the environment. They can work in tiny quantities. Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation (e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself. Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but especially not when there is a better solution. ___________________________________________ So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers. Acid Weed Killers ACETIC ACID Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on hot days. Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid industrial vinegars in the organic garden. In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later, but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even after 9 weeks. The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination. The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off immediately. It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf, Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all the plants it touches. FATTY ACIDS These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing. So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty herbicides. Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed seeds being distributed. Salt Weed Killers A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So target its application and use sparingly. Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi, earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out, even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.
http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
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im not pushing this but found it interesting --------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1 quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not quite as well) 5 tablespoons vinegar 6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt) 1 teaspoon lemon juice 2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent to make a gallon multiply by 4 ______________________________________________ Explanations Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses the results are usually obvious in a very short time. As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated. Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides) These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D, Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by chemists, but are banned in organic gardening. As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the environment. They can work in tiny quantities. Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation (e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself. Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but especially not when there is a better solution. ___________________________________________ So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers. Acid Weed Killers ACETIC ACID Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on hot days. Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid industrial vinegars in the organic garden. In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later, but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even after 9 weeks. The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination. The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off immediately. It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf, Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all the plants it touches. FATTY ACIDS These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing. So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty herbicides. Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed seeds being distributed. Salt Weed Killers A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So target its application and use sparingly. Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi, earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out, even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.
http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.
Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and Feed or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.
A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard to get an education:
http://www.mindfully.org /
Other sites of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup
http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf
http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm
http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/house/yard/lawn/chemicals.html
foolish foolish human race
per monsanto's own words
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Roundup-MSDS25jan01.htm
oh well......
pull your weeds and use soil conditioner
I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.
Jim Threadgill Austin TX
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And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products. Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol or laundry bleach:
http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/index.html
The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.
This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing, but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Well Trader. I think most on here will agree with you. Do your own thing just don't tell me that your thing should be mine too. Most on here, seem to be educated enough about these chemicals to use them properly and responsibly. Of course there will always be idiots who think that a "dash" of chemical in the sprayer mix is "close enough" and that 2 "dashes" will work twice as well. And you will always have idiots who think that if a pint of vinegar and salt in solution will kill the weeds then a quart will work twice as well.
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From what I understand it's "garden" vinegar and orange oil. I have some but I've never used it. I listen to the gardening shows on the radio almost every Saturday and these guys seem to think it works. It has been in use for quite a while. We have an enlightened media in Austin regarding gardening. BTW: They are on a conservative radio station (with Rush L.).
I just pull the weeds. If I had a large lot that needed weeding I would mow them before they seed. In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place as they keep the seeds from germinating. In Albuquerque, a while back, the mayor (Dean Rusk from the Carter adm.) let all the weeds grow because he said that is the best way to get rid of them. In the natural desert there are very few weeds because the ground isn't tilled. Hoeing weeds gives them a place to grow. The mayor's experiment never worked cause we had a real wet year and the weeds grew like crazy. The mayor lost the next election and the new mayor (Kenny) immediately had the weeds removed.
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jthread said:
[...]

Huh?
[rest snipped]
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weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place for seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground undisturbed.

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jthread said:

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds from germinating.
--

Eggs

After heat killed bad germs, where do they go? Obviously not in heaven,
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

flushed him right after he started posting in here. I suggest everyone else reading this should do the same.
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it's a big love in!
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sue me

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jthread said:

Nah. No need.
*flushing sounds*
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good argument. killfile me. please. it's my pleasure.

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