# Yo: THE King

• posted on February 21, 2009, 8:56 pm
If you're ever gonna get out of the truck, you'll have to learn how to deal with this shiite. ;)
I would like your imput on the following. I'm trying to figure out efficiency of this heat pump. Here's my calculations.
Indoor 72 F. Outdoor 40 F
To get CFM of air handler:
Temp in = 72 Temp out = 91 TR = 19 BTUH = 237 VAC x 20 A x 3.412 = 16,173
CFM = BTUH / (TR * 1.08) CFM = 16,173 / (19 * 1.08) CFM = 16,173 / 20.52 = 788
To get BTUH output of heat pump (w/o heat strip):
Temp in = 73 Temp out = 93 TR = 25 BTUH = CFM x TR x 1.08 BTUH = 788 x 25 x 1.08 = 21,276
To get BTUH of energy input: 237VAC Heat pump fan = 0.59A Heat pump compressor = 7.6A Total heat pump W = 8.19 x 237 = 1,941
BTUH = W x 3.412 x 1.08 BTUH = 1941 x 3.412 x 1.08 = 7,153
COP = hh / hw where COP = Coefficient of Performance hh = heat produced (Btu/h) hw = equivalent electric energy input (Btu/h) = 3.412 Pw where Pw = electrical input energy (W)
COP = 21,276 / 7,153 = 2.97
EER = hc / Pw where EER = Energy Efficiency Rating hc = cooling heat (Btu/h) Pw = electrical power (W)
hc = 21,276 Pw = air handler fan + heat pump fan + heat pump compressor Pw = (1.36 + 0.59 + 7.6) X 237 = 2263.35 EER = hc / Pw EER = 21,276 / 2,263 = 9.4
Formulas from: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-pump-efficiency-ratings-d_1117.html
Data from: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/Goodman_GSZ13_Specs_0508.PDF Page 18 GSZ130241A* / AR*F182416**
These are for a 2 Ton, R410A, 13 SEER @ 40 F outside Data sheet shows: MBh 19.8 COP 3.06 EER 10.5 Amps 7.0 Hi PR 212 Lo PR 54 <------ WTF???????????
Unit is running hot and heavy (350/100 from HVAC tech quick check) Still waiting for HVAC tech to come back and start diagnosis....
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• posted on February 21, 2009, 9:02 pm

OOPS That is what he says it should be. He measured 410/96

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<%-name%>
• posted on February 21, 2009, 11:19 pm
snip

He's a lucky guy! :)
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• posted on February 22, 2009, 12:08 am
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:19:50 -0500, The King

I left the installer HVAC guy completely alone. He worked for about 3 hours - brazed pipe (all holes predrilled and tubing threaded through loosely), purged,topped up charge and fired it up. All wiring had been done and checked. Furnace was already running on aux heat. He said everything was fine so I gave him \$540. I've since learned that there were a number of items he failed to check out. (Such as turning off fan to cause icing and checking defrost cycle).
The new HVAC tech says the thing might have been overcharged or maybe "bullet" on indoor coil overtightened or ????
I think I'm gonna watch this time and at least write down some measurements for a record. At least I now have a basic understanding of what to expect vis-a-vis pressures, temps etc.
I've come to the conclusion that the quality of the HVAC tech is more important than brand or model.
The problem is finding one..... I hope this guy is good.
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• posted on February 23, 2009, 7:47 am
Jean wrote:

Finally! you have learned the facts about HVAC. Now you know why some of us can be snotty SOB's. We are in demand too many hours a day because there are a lot of ignorant hacks out there. Also too many that think they should short every job in order to get more service calls in. There is a lifetime very dynamic learning curve in this business.

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<%-name%>
• posted on February 21, 2009, 11:14 pm

Your shit looks ok at a glance. You got a chubby at the tool box didn't you. /;
Typically HP's have a COP of 3 so your in the ball park. Maybe you should get a decibel meter and compare your unit to what the spec sheet says. Maybe you'll find out its normal.
As a benchmark Lennox boasts of a unit that is rated at 76 db. They claim the quietest HP on the market. Personally I think the Japs have sewn up the quiet market which makes sense given their urban situation.
Need necessitates invention so they say.
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 12:51 am
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:14:16 -0500, The King

[BLUSH]
Those formulas are great for checking out the operation. I should have done that at the beginning. I also wrote an Excel worksheet so I just have to type in the numbers. It does all the calculations.
Now if I can only get a data sheet from Goodman I can trust.....
I wish I still had access to a data logger. Just think what I could do with 32 digital and eight analogue inputs. I could sit in my armchair and monitor everything that is going on, minute by minute. I could even have colored diagrams show heat and cool with varying shades of red and blue.

Wait till I post the defrost cycle to youtube. It now sounds so bad, I've switched back to aux. I think the thing is gonna blow up!
I thought of that. Radio Shack has got one in stock for \$49.95. I might pick one up. I can also test it on the neighbors.

Yup! I'm still pondering the cement "cone of silence".
My preliminary calculations are about eighty-five 60# bags of readi-mix. I'll have to check if there is a sale on cement mixers ;)
I think I'm getting to be like Harrison Ford in "Mosquito Coast". This HVAC thing is becoming an obsession with me.
Here's what it looks and sounds like:
The Mosquito Coast

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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 1:28 am
snip

trick. Get artistic and make it look like a volcano or something. lol

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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 2:04 am
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:28:31 -0500, The King

I tried that once back in '65. I had to go for the "cure"....

You'll have to rent the movie.
Here's a synopsis for the "fat pipe" challenged... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito_Coast

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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 12:36 pm
Well now that you have some tools to play with do me a favor.
Do Not bug the living dog shit out of the poor soul that is to be your future service tech. His job will be hard enough without any more outside interference.
Ask the company that your call to send the best guy they have and tell them you are willing to wait. In the mean time, if possible, use the electric heat for now.
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 12:42 pm
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 07:36:02 -0500, The King

I know it goes completely against your nature (because your an anal retentive type) to be able to leave the guy alone so read the following to your wife.
Dear Mrs. Jeanuis,
Please keep your husband entertained while the service tech is at your home. You know what a pest he can be. :)
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 22, 2009, 4:22 pm
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 07:42:43 -0500, The King

I have to thank you for that and I honestly do appreciate it. I have learned allot about heat pumps here.
But, your responses, liberally peppered with insults and derogatory remarks as they are, do not instill confidence.
So next time you see someone using incorrect information, could you also point them to a relevant URL to back up your arguments? It would minimize the agony - on both sides. ;)

If you had read some of my posts, you would have seen that I allowed the HVAC tech, who originally commissioned the unit, complete autonomy. I left him to do his job on his own. I trusted his expertise and paid him well.
In a preliminary consultation with the current HVAC tech (which I paid for) I was asked questions about the previous install that I could not answer - pressures, temps, proper piston size, etc, etc.
The original installation company insists the job was done correctly. They said all heat pumps make that noise (wrong) or that unit was physically damaged. They didn't even offer to come by and have a quick look. He said a service call would be \$125/hr (including travel).
At this point in time (until further diagnostics) the new tech is tending to think the unit was not commissioned correctly at the beginning and will check it out thoroughly.

I pulled the plug on the heat pump Saturday morning. Unit is now running on aux heat.

Let me guess.... you took Psychology 101?

THAT ain't gonna happen. I've been given enough flack over this heat pump business to last me the rest of my life.
SO: "Why didn't you make sure the guy was doing a good job?" ME: "Because I don't know much about these things. You have to trust the man. Technician's don't like people hovering over them while they work."
SO: "I told you to call my cousin and get the name of their furnace man." ME: "She lives 50 miles away. Besides, they have a gas furnace."
SO: "You better watch everything he (new tech) does and make sure he does a good job. If that thing still makes a racket, you can throw it out and get a real furnace." ME: "Sigh..."
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 23, 2009, 7:05 am

ROTFL!
So YOU learned whatever it is you do for a living by your self-interpretation of selective web sites?
Does Wikipedia count as accredited curriculum?
Happy trolling in the alt.hvac!
-zero
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 23, 2009, 7:00 pm
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:05:18 -0500, "zero"

The King kindly pointed me to the following URL: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-heating-equations-d_747.html
Do you think that site is accredited?
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 23, 2009, 9:35 pm

Accredited? By whom?
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<%-name%>
• posted on February 23, 2009, 10:51 pm
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:35:53 -0500, The King

Maybe the guy thinks I'm working on a doctorate in HVAC. Or maybe he is just a common, everyday asshole.
In any event, it's good enough for my purposes. I imagine that someone would have already flamed them if it was wrong. ;)
Sure is a fun group in this ng.......
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• posted on February 23, 2009, 7:54 am
Jean wrote:

You might also consider EchoZorb. It is used to buffer the Sound of the 36000 rpm heat exchanger fan on Fighter aircraft Radar Modulators.

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• posted on February 23, 2009, 7:11 pm
wrote:

Thanks for info.
I've ordered a sound blanket and will see how well that works. I was thinking, if I have to build a fence, I will look at incorporating that material instead of "recommended" two layers of 2x6 wood. I checked google and it comes in panels.