X13 type vs. variable speed ECM

Hi, Is there significant difference in reliability between two types?
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the short answer is no.
I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace a half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to low voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.
However... you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, CBer, or they have sensitive audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your supplier and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for the fix.
Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 motors... this is not a bad thing.
My personal prefrence is the ECM motors
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Steve wrote:

Hi, Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century, VE6CGX. I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around this ECMs when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be troublesome but does not look like it according to your observation. I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed, this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection w/o any issues)
Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz) Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....
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THe problem isn't with the logic, its with the electronicaly commutated motors, and the switching power supplies that are built into them. One of my customers is also a HAM.... his system has an X13 blower motor... he also runs a FLEX radio... he was seeing spikes every 18khz across the spectrum with it being the worst between 10 and 30+ mhz.
I have serious noise with the ECM blower motor in my gas furnace... I have managed to reduce the noise leves from S8 down to S4... better, but still not acceptable.
I did an X13 motor replacement for anothe customer 2 weeks ago... when I got into the truck, I was getting almost an S10 noise level on 20meters.
The tech reps are supposed to be sending me 2 "kits" to fix the problem with my gas furnace , and my customers air handler. That was 2 weeks ago... They were also supposed to send me an email or 2 about the problems and installation instructions for the kits. Welll.... as you can imagine, the parts are on the truck.....
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I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near the furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close to half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3
Greg
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gregz wrote:

Hmmm! Even noise blanker is not very effetive on thi kind of noise.
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The noise blankers on the TS480 are really good, and no.... they don't work worth a crap with this noise. N6OJN
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face=Verdana>...<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = Hi,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Is there significant difference in reliability between two types?<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the short answer is no.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; low<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; However...&nbsp; you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, CBer, or they have <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; sensitive<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supplier<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fix.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; motors...<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is not a bad thing.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My personal prefrence is the ECM motors<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; VE6CGX. I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this ECMs when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; troublesome but does not look like it according to your observation.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; w/o any = issues)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; the<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; to<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Greg<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Hmmm!<BR>&gt;&gt; Even noise blanker is not very effetive on thi kind of noise.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The noise blankers on the TS480 are really good, and no.... they don't work <BR>&gt; worth a crap with this noise.&nbsp; N6OJN<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana><EM>It seems to me as Ham operator (presently not active KA2AYS) </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana><EM>that this manufactures have FCC in their packets!!!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>One that owns Equipment should not need call them</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>You should be advised by them that are problems and make </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>date when are to come at site to take care of it,</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>Or recall as they do with the cars.It seems that rule applies </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>to some but not to other "why" because to many scum bags </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana>in Congress and Senate!-!-!</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Got the RFI kits from the engineer at the motor manufacturer... the one for the X13 motor completely took out the noise on that one. The kit for the ECM motor on mine reduced the noise to S3.... but its still a problem. It seems that the proximity of the antenna to the furnace (only 20' separation) is causing additional issues. The engineer is sending me some prototype stuff to try out on my furnace.
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Put this on home repair group
Back in HVAC discussing noisy variable speed fans. Looking at CB and amateur 10/11 meter bands. I have to turn ac off to get good noise levels. Turned cb on yesterday. New noise. Sssss pow. Sssss pow. Constant interval , S3 level. Take portable cb around house. Strange places where it showed up, with no sensible answers. Go outside, getting stronger near poles. Walk up street, getting stronger. Top of hill, 300 feet from house, signal stronger. Go back to house, thinking I still have problem in house. Start shutting off breakers. Got it. Goes to kitchen/ dinning area. Start pulling plugs. Look on breaker chart. One more near laptop area. Look down at sears lithium battery charger, no battery inserted. Pull plug. No noise. Question is, I'll have to go back up the street and check. Neighbors may also have similar devices.
Greg
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face=Verdana>...<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Is there significant difference in reliability between two types?<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the short answer is no.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I have not had to replace any ECM motors (yet), but have had to replace a<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; half dozen X13 motors. The X13 motors all seem to have to failed due to low<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; voltage(70 - 80v) caused by failed breakers.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; However...&nbsp; you have to keep your static pressure within acceptable<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; perameters, and both motors have a nasty tendency to put off a lot of<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFI/EMI. If the client is a HAM radio operator, = CBer, or they have sensitive<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; audio equipment, this may be a big problem. If it is, contact your supplier<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and manufacturer tech reps... they will deal with it on a case by case<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basis. Yes it will have to go through the manufacturers engineers for the<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; fix.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Rheem/RUUD has an optional surge protecter available for the X13 motors...<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is not a bad thing.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My personal prefrence is the ECM motors<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for the heads up. I happen to be a HAM over half a century,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; VE6CGX. I have RF sniffer, spectrum analyzer,etc. something to do around<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; this ECMs when they are running. I thought VS control logic could be<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; troublesome but does not look like it according to your observation.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; I had Carrier performance series new edition 2 stage furnace installed,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; this morning inspector came out and gave a thumbs u(passed inspection w/o any issues)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Too many RF stuffs around house, my radios and antenna, weather<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; station(415MHz), Wireless thermostat(915MHz), Garage door opener(413MHz)<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Cordless phone(5.4GHz), Dual band WiFi router,etc. Microwave oven, Cell<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; phones, Yuck! Not a good thing.....<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; I did some mild rf elimination. I think I have to try a ground rod near the<BR>&gt;&gt; furnace, and maybe the compressor box. I installed a bunch of led<BR>&gt;&gt; controllers I have to work on suppressing their ins and outs. Dam close to<BR>&gt;&gt; half a century, K3WNW, N6GS/3<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; Greg<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Put this on home repair group<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Back in HVAC discussing noisy variable speed fans. Looking at CB and<BR>&gt; amateur 10/11 meter bands. I have to turn ac off to get good noise levels.<BR>&gt; Turned cb on yesterday. New noise. Sssss pow. Sssss pow. Constant interval<BR>&gt; , S3 level. Take portable cb around house. Strange places where it showed<BR>&gt; up, with no sensible answers. Go outside, getting stronger near poles. Walk<BR>&gt; up street, getting stronger. Top of hill, 300 feet from house, signal<BR>&gt; stronger.<BR>&gt; Go back to house, thinking I still have problem in house. Start shutting<BR>&gt; off breakers. Got it. Goes to kitchen/ dinning area. Start pulling plugs.<BR>&gt; Look on breaker chart. One more near laptop area. Look down at sears<BR>&gt; lithium battery charger, no battery inserted. Pull plug. No noise. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana><EM>Are you saying that battery charger is culprit????</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana><EM></EM></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Question<BR>&gt; is, I'll have to go back up the street and check. Neighbors may also have<BR>&gt; similar devices.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Greg</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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replying to Steve , Rudy wrote:

I am a ham radio operator and recently had a Ruud furnace/AC installed. It has a variable speed motor which generates a strong 18 khz signal with many harmonics every 18khz especially between 18 and 30 Mhz. It is so strong that I have to turn off the heat or AC to operate. To make matters worse my neighbor has the identical unit and even though it is 100 feet away it still generates the same strong signal. Even I fix mine I can't fix my neighbors. Where is the FCC when they are needed?
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Last summer I looked at mine. I attached chokes to the thermostat, and some on the ac near furnace. Helped some. I was thinking of attaching a ground rod to the metalwork near fan.
Greg
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Rudy wrote:

Hi, I believe manufacturer has RFI kit to deal with the problem. I remember reading about it in the manual. Time to stock up ferrite cores? I am a HAM also since '50s.
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On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:56:17 PM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:

My guess is the fcc doesn't care so much anymore. So much of what we use over the air is digital now and is more immune to noise.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Hi, Same up here. Industry Canada let go of regulating HAM radio. They gave us life time license w/o renewal fee telling us you are on your own.
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It is the manufacturers responsibility to produce a product compliant with the EMI/RFI rules.. I'd contact them.. Let them know that you need it to be fixed..
You might want to get the ARRL involved.. Mr. Ed Hare is their RFI wizzard.
It's probably not the first time Ruud has heard about this.. and if the ARRL gets the FCC involved... Ruud will wonder what fell on them! :-)
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