Need to replace Electric Baseboard Heating Units & Replacement Windows

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VENTED?????????
BULLSHIT!!!!!!!
Just because they are UNVENTED, doesn't mean they don't produce CO.
And if they were 100% efficient... they wouldn't be creating CO... DIPSHIT.
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On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:20:42 -0500, Steve Spence

Dude, Have you read the first two pages of those "non-vented" 100% efficient heaters? Bythe time you finish reading all the warnings and precautions you'll think twice before using a non vented appliance. Bubba
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You are aware that a non vented gas or propane can legally exhaust up to 800ppm of CO into a residence? Levels higher than that are not uncommon.
You're correct, spreading misinformation is dangerous. Please educate yourself regarding CO and gas or propane appliances.
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:20:42 -0500, Steve Spence

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Catalytic propane radiant heaters are popular in large spaces, but I wouldn't use one in a home, and have never seen one used in a home.
I saw 3 UNVENTED natural gas heaters purchased to be installed in a home by an ex-gas company employee, and heard later that the tenants complained of the odor using them. I had a friend that used stove top burners to heat a couple of rooms upstairs in his parent's house, when I visited my eyes burned a lot.
People do use unvented heaters, and some are advertised as being safe to use in a home, but if there is a warning on the heater to use it ONLY in a well ventilated space, it is probably not safe to use in a home.
There has been a progression in the safety of natural gas space heaters, the first had no safety devices at all, then they had pilot lights with thermo- couples to not open the main valve if the pilot goes out, and both of mine also have an overheat Klixon in series with the thermocouple, and that makes it safer, but requires changing the thermocouple more often because of the resistance of the switch and wires, and the thermocouple produces less voltage after a few months of use.
I have no problem with using the gas space heaters, but I prefer not to have one running in a room I sleep in, even thought they are vented with 5 inch metal vent pipes into a tile lined masonry chimney.
Joe Fischer
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion
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quoting from that source.....
Chemical equation
Generally, the chemical equation for stoichiometric burning of hydrocarbon in oxygen is as follows:
C_xH_y + (x + \\frac)O_2 \\rightarrow \\; xCO_2 + (\\frac)H_2O
For example, the burning of propane is:
C_3H_8 + 5O_2 \\rightarrow \\; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O
The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in oxygen is:
\\textrm + \\textrm \\rightarrow \\; \\textrm + \\textrm + \\textrm{Carbon\\ dioxide}
If the combustion takes place using air as the oxygen source, the corresponding equations are:
C_xH_y + (x+ \\frac)O_2 + 3.76(x+ \\frac)N_2 \\rightarrow \\; xCO_2 + (\\frac)H_2O + 3.76(x + \\frac)N_2
For example, the burning of propane is:
C_3H_8 + 5O_2 + 18.8N_2 \\rightarrow \\; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O + 18.8N_2
The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in air is:
\\textrm + \\textrm \\rightarrow \\; \\textrm + \\textrm + \\textrm{Carbon\\ dioxide} + \\textrm
bottom line, I couldnt see where CO by itself is produced.......by combusting propane and oxygen or propane and air..... co2, yes, co, no.
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Our
Fish,
Yes I know this--here's where it does get produced :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion#Incomplete
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http://www.carbonmonoxidedeaths.com /
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On Wed, snipped-for-privacy@gonefishin.net wrote:

All gas ranges have had unvented ovens and top burners for all time, and most people know enough to have the air adjusted if there is much red or orange or yellow flames. With pure blue flame they are considered safe, but it is assumed they are not used constantly.
Most of the unvented heaters are not very large, usually less than 20,000 BTU/hour.
My vented heaters are 75,000 and 35,000 BTU/hour, and Cozy also sells them with propane jets, but they are all vented.
Gas water heaters do kill people, but it usually takes both a blocked vent and an incorrect air setting to do that. All gas appliances must have a way to adjust the air induction, and if any red, yellow or orange flame is seen, have somebody that knows how adjust it.
But any over 20,000 BTU/hour should probably be vented, especially in rooms where people sleep. My heater instructions state how much of an opening is required for fresh air to enter.
Joe Fischer
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Gas ranges were vented up till around 1920-1930. And you absolutely can not tell the unit is running properly by a blue flame. My CO detector disagrees with that statement.
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:09:50 -0500, Joe Fischer

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Tell that to the 50 million gas range users and the gas company service men that check them anytime the gas has been shut off and they won't turn the meter on until they can get in the house and check all the appliances.
But I turned the supply valve off to my 1959 Magic Chef, I simply don't want pilots on in an unvented stove, in fact I don't need a stove as long as the microwave works.
Joe Fischer
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wrote:

More BULLSHIT.
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800 ppm - (air-free) Level of CO allowed inside oven flues by an American gas association (now ANSI) standard, # Z21.1. [this level is unchanged since 1921 when oven flues were still vented outdoors like woodstoves, instead of directly into the kitchen as they have since 1950s!
And for a reference point, 400 ppm - Level of CO (air-free) allowed inside furnace flues by an American gas association (now ANSI) standard.
So, it's permissible by ANSI standards for your properly adjusted kitchen stove to vent TWICE the level of CO INTO your home that your furnace can vent up the flue.
You think that's okay?
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:58:54 -0500, Joe Fischer

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How can you relate "permissible levels" with "properly adjusted"?

I don't think it is ok for any CO to be in closed living space, and all I mentioned is that there are millions of stove top burners and unvented ovens, if they are not safe, it is something that is not widely known.
While gas company men may not check for CO levels, they will not turn a meter on without making sure there are no burners on that are not controlled by safety valves.
The gas company turned my meter off last spring to fix a leak in the street, and I wasn't home when they wanted to turn it back on, and I told them to wait till fall, and when I called, the man came out and lit the space heater pilot in the living room, and wouldn't take my word that I had the supply valve to the gas range turned off, he checked top see for himself before turning the meter on, and wouldn't leave until I showed him the vent pipe for the space heater in my room that is turned off, but available if the grid goes down to replace my electric heat.
In about 1975, somehow the main gas valve for the entire city of Somerset, Pennsylvania was turned off, and it could not be turned back on until every one of the 5,000 or so meters were turned off, and the meters then only turned back on as men from utilities from several states went house to house lighting pilots, it took almost a week, luckily the temperature was in the 30s and 40s F.
Joe Fischer
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wrote:

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You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment that's running properly.
Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more than 9ppm.
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:31:17 -0500, Steve Spence

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Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!
And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't give off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.
Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!
Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter? I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.

OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!
You just showed your stupidity with this post.
Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.
I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide fumes!!!!!
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.
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give
Is my post incorrect? Did I say you posted that?
Please keep up or stay on the porch.
I for one, know that Steve Scott knows his shit. Unlike you.
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

I don't have time for rude little posers like you. I've been running and fixing propane equipment for years. I take precautions, but I'm not scared of it like you are. It's very common equipment among us off-gridders, with years of worry free performance. If you value scott's opinion so much, why did you mark his post as being stupid? Whatever, you aren't worth the trouble. bbye now.
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Steve Spence
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