Cost of geothermal heat pumps

I have been researching geothermal heat pumps for a while. The general opinion is that the installation of ground source heat pumps (without the loop) may be slightly higher than air source heat pumps. However, when asking about the new WaterFurnace Envision heat pump, I receive ballpark numbers that I cannot believe. One vendor told me that a 3-ton WaterFurnace Envision would be around $13K including installation but without the vertical ground loop (which would be an extra $6K), while a friend of mine installed a Trane system 7 years ago for less than $12K including the vertical ground loop.
Are WaterFurnace GSHP really that much more expensive? Or does that guy think these are space shuttle parts?
Thanks, Frank
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No, the difference is because of several factors.
Seven years ago the price of sheet metal was 150% cheaper than today's prices Seven years ago the copper used was 1200% less than today's costs Seven years ago the loop material, including pumps were about a grand less for a 3 ton unit.
Funny how the public never mentions how housing prices go up or groceries, cars. Heck, seven years ago I paid LESS than $130 for a gallon of milk, today its $3. Look at Gas prices, BTW, plastics are made of oils so all the plastic material in the units went up.
Look at insurance, gas, cost of autos, labor rates, all went up
So, you think Geos installed today should be the same as that of seven years ago? Equipment efficiencies have gone up.
Enough said or do you need more info? Really, where have you been the last seven years?
Also, possibly the dealer you contacted may be a better dealer, and the job might be better as well.

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Understood. But all that is not the bulk of the cost of any pump. I am primarily paying for the technology, R&D etc, which tends to become less and less expensive, especially as geothermal becomes more common. Also, my friend installed a 4-ton pump (forgot to mention that), and the cost for the pump alone (w/o the ground loop) was less then $4K. So prices would have tripled, which seems a lot despite the advance in efficiency.

years
Again, no question. But the speed of the CPU in my desktop has quadrupled or more without getting more expensive. I would even accept a reasonable increase in cost, as I know I would probably be anywhere between $6K and $8K for an air source heat pump.

job
Also possible. And I would be willing to pay for that. I am just trying to figure out whether this guy is quoting the equipment on the high side. I have heard people say $3K/ton would be reasonable, so I am wondering if the WaterFurnace Envision is worth paying an extra $1K/ton.
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Wrong, your paying for R&D for the higher seers. You can not compare this to computers! Labor MORE, raw materials MORE (Think about it, how much material is in a comptuer )

Once again, how many pounds of copper is in that computer, how many pounds of 410 A which is tripple of r-22, how much steel. Lets be REAL here, computers raw materials is what, $20 bucks tops!

3 K a ton is ridiculous, you will get a pure HACK job! Heck, I quoted a system last year that would normally be 20K and now its over $30,000 just to make the same amount of profit. Numbers down't lie. I use to pay 98 cents for a standard register boot, that same boot is close to $4 now. Just last year I was able to install a 20 KW back up heater with copper wire for $142. That SAME job when we got around to it had the copper increased in just 12 months to $789 !!! Now you don't think that there is a difference ? Just the wiring for your unit has gone up 600%,
Lastly, compare the difference between what your buddy got 7 years ago to what your getting and there is NO Comparison!! Man, your getting the Royals Royce, I would have quoted it MORE!
Also, if you go by price instead of design then go for the cheap one, you wont know the difference. But if you understand designs and material differences you will not be concerned with price.
Example, true experiences.
Customer 1 wanted cheap, I put in the same system as my competators. Customer 2 wanted the best and cheapest too run. I installed the best system possible.
Customer 1 2320 sq ft on floor ranch. Wanted cheap, I put in the same loop as our competator quoted and the same equipment. Average electric bill about $150
Customer 2, and engineer at the State Veterans Home 4875 sq ft, two story. Changed his building plans to accomodate the Geothermal system available. EVERYONE quoted a 3 ton or less, we put in a 6 ton unit and oversized the loop. Average electric bill is about $110.
Cost difference between the two customers was $11,000. BUT, the one house was 2 times larger, so you have to understand that the materials and labor were just about double. But the customer two price from the other contractors and myself was $12,400 differnce. So, for $2400 he got LOWER electric bills, better comfort, reistant heat hardly turns on, resale value OFF THE CHARTS!!!
This is my last reply, if you cant see the differences I give up. Your freind probably has a 2.9 COP where the envision IF properly designed and IF properly installed is OVER 5 !!! Amazing efficiencies.
Rich

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Rich -
I know you said you weren't going to reply again, but I'm curious as to why the large discrepancy in sizing here? Poor load calcs? Trying to cut corners? And was this in a cold or warm climate?
Thanks!
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wrote:

It was what they had on hand. Load calcs had nothing to do with it.
"Changed his building plans to accomodate the Geothermal system available."
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wrote:

Maybe they hit rock running the geo-loop, or else the backhoe was broke last week so they figured they'd have to dig it all by hand.
Who knows?
Hey-- how about them CARDINALS?
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wrote:

The other bozos undersized the units- we were able to correctly size the unit ( after homeowner made our recommended building changes ) and loop so that resistance heat would not eat his electric bill up. The three ton units would have killed him and we were able to show this with the load calcs.
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Tranes Geothermal heat pumps arer junk. They are made by a company out of Wako, TX. Are single speed PSC units. I am having a brain fart about the company's name. The WFI Envision unit is the most efficient unit on the MArket right now. Especially the 3 ton unit. Make sure you are sizing by th eHeat Load and not the cooling load. Price sounds right in line. Loop actually seems cheap.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net
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